View Full Version : Food Addiction ...
Food addiction .... I've been reading about this lately.
It involves a 'compulsive pursuit of a mood change by engaging repeatedly in episodes of binge eating despite adverse consequences.'
Did you know this is a real 'condition'?
A food addict is an individual who continues to use food compulsively without regard for the negative consequences. Compulsion is always present in the disease of addiction.
They're not weak willed or suffering from a bad habit or a behaviour problem. Rather, they have metabolic, biochemical imbalances which result in the characteristic symptoms of addiction. It's said that food addicts are 'obsessed with food, preoccupied with weight and appearance, and experience a progressive loss of control over the amount of food they eat.'
It's said there are symptoms that are present in all addictions - obsession, compulsion, denial, tolerance, withdrawal syndrome and craving. Food addicts exhibit all of these signs plus a distorted body image.
Obsession - demonstrated by frequently recurring thoughts about buying, preparing, and eating food. The force of desire for food is irresistable and is followed by action. It's a psychological truth that we move towards our dominant thought so the preoccupation with getting, preparing and eating food will continually lead to binging.
Compulsion - the loss of control or the inability to stop eating after one bite of a binge food. The food addict may be able to stop for indeterminate periods, but despite all resolutions, will binge again. The inability to control eating is a certain sign of addiction. Loss of control - that is addiction.
It's a paradox isn't it? Eat to feel bettter those foods which make you feel worse. :shrug:
Denial - the mental process by which the person concludes that they're 'alright'. Ignorance of the disease process and the inability for self examination work together to keep a person sick. Knowing nothing about food addiction and knowing no other way to live, the individual concludes that there is nothing wrong.
Tolerance - the body's ability to endure contact with a substance. For the food addict, as food intake increases, the physiological level of tolerance to binge food increases. The body depends on the presence of refined carbs and develops the need for greater quantities. One bite is too many, a thousand not enough.
Withdrawal - We know that it's an addiction because when the supply of binge food is cut off, for whatever reason, the food addict experiences withdrawal symptoms. (think of when you cut sugar out of your diet). It can appear to be like flu symptoms even. During withdrawal there's always the risk of returning since consumption of addicting substances will bring relief from the discomfort of withdrawal symptoms. The dangers of this are obvious of course. Although the reintroduction may lead to better feelings, it'll trigger the addiction.
Ever felt that? Start a new diet and you feel a bit dizzy and weak for a bit? But a little sugar makes you feel better?
I've got more stuff but I'll start other threads for my discussion ideas.
Blondell
09-04-2007, 08:05 PM
I recall you stating that you would look into this. I hope you continue to get a better understanding of it.
Nice post.
hsquared
09-04-2007, 08:11 PM
This seems to me to be one of the most difficult addictions to deal with because you can't get rid of food. I know all addictions are difficult, but with alcohol and drugs or even gambling, you can remove it from your environment. You can't do that with food, so in essences, every bite is a trigger. But, you have to eat, so there is always that threat of the addiction.
Also, I think it is important to distinguish between an unhealthy relationship with food and an addiction. So, I wonder, where is the line? I have heard that you can be addicted to alcohol even if you only binge drink on the weekends. So if you have regular intervals of binge eating, are you addicted to food?
This seems to me to be one of the most difficult addictions to deal with because you can't get rid of food.
But you can get rid of trigger foods.
I know all addictions are difficult, but with alcohol and drugs or even gambling, you can remove it from your environment. You can't do that with food, so in essences, every bite is a trigger. But, you have to eat, so there is always that threat of the addiction.
The issue isn't food per se. It's the trigger foods - those that result in the binge. Those CAN be removed.
It's not a matter of removing all food. It's a matter of following a lifestyle that precludes the intake of the foods one is addicted to. Kind of like how Alcoholics Anonymous precludes the intake of alcohol, but obviously allows the use of other beverages such as water, milk, whatever.
Also, I think it is important to distinguish between an unhealthy relationship with food and an addiction. So, I wonder, where is the line? I have heard that you can be addicted to alcohol even if you only binge drink on the weekends. So if you have regular intervals of binge eating, are you addicted to food?
Any binge eating isn't going to fall under the headline of 'healthy relationship with food' IMO.
The criteria of any addiction - the ones mentioned in the first post - that'd be a good place to start. They're symptoms present in all addictions; indicators used to help recognize it.
Hi. My name is Ali, and I'm a food addict. :oops:
Hi. My name is Ali, and I'm a food addict. :oops:
Hi there Ali.
Noel Clark
09-04-2007, 08:34 PM
Hi. My name is Ali, and I'm a food addict. :oops:
Do you really feel that you are?
Hi. My name is Ali, and I'm a food addict. :oops:
Hi Ali, My name is Ana and I'M a food addict :(
I put this in the craving thread, but this is also what's said about food addiction.
It's said that all food addicts have one thing in common - once they eat a trigger food, it sets off and develops the craving for more of it.
I think this might be something that most people take a lot more lightly than say an addiction to a drug or alcohol, but the reality of it is that it's very serious when you consider the emotional roller coaster some people spend 90% of their time on because of food. And even in the more serious cases, the physical consequences.
ritzgal
09-04-2007, 08:40 PM
They're not weak willed or suffering from a bad habit or a behaviour problem. Rather, they have metabolic, biochemical imbalances which result in the characteristic symptoms of addiction. It's said that food addicts are 'obsessed with food, preoccupied with weight and appearance, and experience a progressive loss of control over the amount of food they eat.'
Bingo.
I can go from looking at myself in the mirror and thinking "You've got to get the size of your ass under control," to heading down the hall raiding the candy jar because I'm stressed out. Thus like Erik said, one minute loathing what the food is doing to my body, and shoving it in my face the next.
Maybe not addiction, but I do have food issues.
I put this in the craving thread, but this is also what's said about food addiction.
It's said that all food addicts have one thing in common - once they eat a trigger food, it sets off and develops the craving for more of it.
I am not sure that I have one particular food. It is overeating in general...sets off more overeating. I am not sure if it's related to sugar or carbs, but they are definitely involved. I've never binged on protein. So, maybe this is another whole ED entirely. :lol:
I think this might be something that most people take a lot more lightly than say an addiction to a drug or alcohol, but the reality of it is that it's very serious when you consider the emotional roller coaster some people spend 90% of their time on because of food. And even in the more serious cases, the physical consequences.
Absolutely, I explained it before and most ppl simply don't get it or don't believe it, but because my issues with food are predominantly sweets I've eaten to the point where I've come close to losing consciousness. I'm thinking i'm going to end up in the hospital. It's quite scary in fact but at the same time I can't stop
hsquared
09-04-2007, 08:41 PM
That is very interesting. I did not realize that it was only trigger foods. I thought it was all food, but that makes sense.
I wonder if there is a fuzzy line between body dysmorphic disorder and addictions to food. The description says you have to be preoccupied with weight and appearance, so i wonder if when you have bdd, then, often, you have a food addiction? I guess if you were preoccupied with only one part of your body, like your nose (ahem - Micheal Jackson) then food wouldn't play as large of a role. I would like to know how they all correlate with each other.
On the topic of disturbed body image and how it ties in, it's said that self disgust is a byproduct of food addiction. Dissatisfaction with the body and body parts is part of the process. As a person eats addictively, fear and hatred of fat drives the person crazy. It's impossible to feel self worth when eating is out of control.
There's a direct correlation b/w what happens to the addict physically and the level of self esteem.
The more weight gained for example, the more self loathing experienced. The more the person curses themselves for their weakness. They blame themselves, instead of the actual disease.
Also read that 'weighing is the addiction within the addiction'. If it drops, elation. If it goes up, despair. The scale is the ruler of the food addict's universe. That number can make or break the day.
I am not sure that I have one particular food. It is overeating in general...sets off more overeating. I am not sure if it's related to sugar or carbs, but they are definitely involved. I've never binged on protein. So, maybe this is another whole ED entirely. :lol:
Refined carbohydrates? Sugar? That's what it appears to often be.
ritzgal
09-04-2007, 08:45 PM
On the topic of disturbed body image and how it ties in, it's said that self disgust is a byproduct of food addiction. Dissatisfaction with the body and body parts is part of the process. As a person eats addictively, fear and hatred of fat drives the person crazy. It's impossible to feel self worth when eating is out of control.
There's a direct correlation b/w what happens to the addict physically and the level of self esteem.
The more weight gained for example, the more self loathing experienced. The more the person curses themselves for their weakness. They blame themselves, instead of the actual disease.
Also read that 'weighing is the addiction within the addiction'. If it drops, elation. If it goes up, despair. The scale is the ruler of the food addict's universe. That number can make or break the day.
OMG, where are you reading this stuff and how long have they been following me? :lol:
Absolutely, I explained it before and most ppl simply don't get it or don't believe it, but because my issues with food are predominantly sweets I've eaten to the point where I've come close to losing consciousness. I'm thinking i'm going to end up in the hospital. It's quite scary in fact but at the same time I can't stop
According to what I've read, you need to remove the trigger foods completely. You can't have just a little ...
It's just like an alcoholic. Having just one drink is risky.
Sherry
09-04-2007, 08:46 PM
I can go from looking at myself in the mirror and thinking "You've got to get the size of your ass under control," to heading down the hall raiding the candy jar because I'm stressed out. Thus like Erik said, one minute loathing what the food is doing to my body, and shoving it in my face the next.
I am SO the same way! Sugar is a huge trigger for me...I guess this explains how I can eat a dozen cookies, I just crave more once I have one. I'm not sure I'm an addict...but I too definitely have some issues!
ritzgal
09-04-2007, 08:46 PM
Seriously though, if you have some sources of good reads, that would be great. :grin:
Refined carbohydrates? Sugar? That's what it appears to often be.
Yes, always that stuff.
hsquared
09-04-2007, 08:48 PM
Absolutely, I explained it before and most ppl simply don't get it or don't believe it, but because my issues with food are predominantly sweets I've eaten to the point where I've come close to losing consciousness. I'm thinking i'm going to end up in the hospital. It's quite scary in fact but at the same time I can't stop
So, do you talk to anybody about it? Is it an addiction if you can curb it? You have a great figure and you work out hard, so is it an unhealthy relationship with food or an addiction. I don't work with people with addictions (thank goodness for them, right? haha) but to my knowledge, addictions come first and foremost in people's lives above all else. You binge, apparently, but you are able to go long periods without binging. Is that still an addiction? I really don't know. I hope I am not prying too much :)
ritzgal
09-04-2007, 08:48 PM
According to what I've read, you need to remove the trigger foods completely. You can't have just a little ...
It's just like an alcoholic. Having just one drink is risky.
How do you determine what the trigger food is and can it be as broad as refined carbs? Can you have LOTS of trigger foods? I know for a fact waffles are a trigger food for me. I have eaten almost an entire box of Eggos before. And I eat them FROZEN. :sad:
I can go from looking at myself in the mirror and thinking "You've got to get the size of your ass under control," to heading down the hall raiding the candy jar because I'm stressed out. Thus like Erik said, one minute loathing what the food is doing to my body, and shoving it in my face the next.
I am SO the same way! Sugar is a huge trigger for me...I guess this explains how I can eat a dozen cookies, I just crave more once I have one. I'm not sure I'm an addict...but I too definitely have some issues!
Again, by the definitions ....
If a food can set you off and is a trigger food for you to need to eat more of it ... well, that's one thing they say all food addicts have in common.
And sugar, is the most common one.
And you just hit it on what I said in the craving thread. Cravings only come AFTER a food is introduced. Not before. It's another indicator.
Best course of action for to avoid this is to steer clear of whatever your trigger is.
Coll76
09-04-2007, 08:51 PM
On the topic of disturbed body image and how it ties in, it's said that self disgust is a byproduct of food addiction. Dissatisfaction with the body and body parts is part of the process. As a person eats addictively, fear and hatred of fat drives the person crazy. It's impossible to feel self worth when eating is out of control.
There's a direct correlation b/w what happens to the addict physically and the level of self esteem.
The more weight gained for example, the more self loathing experienced. The more the person curses themselves for their weakness. They blame themselves, instead of the actual disease.
Also read that 'weighing is the addiction within the addiction'. If it drops, elation. If it goes up, despair. The scale is the ruler of the food addict's universe. That number can make or break the day.
Me to a T! :(
So, do you talk to anybody about it? Is it an addiction if you can curb it?
Abstinence.
That's the same for any addiction. You can't just feed it a little bit.
You binge, apparently, but you are able to go long periods without binging. Is that still an addiction? I really don't know. I hope I am not prying too much :)
Yes it is.
Brief periods of abstinence from binge eating may occur because of guilt or concern about appearance, but eventually even with the best of intentions to control intake, the food addict will be off again on another binge.
Once control has been lost, the person has crossed into the phase of addiction, and won't be able to return to controlled eating of binge food.
hsquared
09-04-2007, 08:52 PM
It seems to me that there would be a big grieving process when letting go of those trigger foods. Since they bring so much elation to you while eating them, it would be hard to let it go, then you go into despair about it and the cycle continues.
How do you determine what the trigger food is and can it be as broad as refined carbs? Can you have LOTS of trigger foods? I know for a fact waffles are a trigger food for me. I have eaten almost an entire box of Eggos before. And I eat them FROZEN. :sad:
Refined carbs/sugar. I don't think anyone is set off by chicken breast or protein.
It seems to me that there would be a big grieving process when letting go of those trigger foods. Since they bring so much elation to you while eating them, it would be hard to let it go, then you go into despair about it and the cycle continues.
How long does the elation last? Minutes? Addicts eat to feel better the foods that make them feel worse 'The search for that one perfect bite is never over'.
verrry intersting stuff here...I agree, any other references on the subject would be great. There is a book I have mentioned on here before that I truly think hits the nail on the head for alot of people. It is called, "Love Hunger" - dont have the author off hand, but I can get it if anyone wants it..thanks Erik for starting a great thread.. hopefully we all can learn more from it.
ritzgal
09-04-2007, 08:55 PM
Refined carbs/sugar. I don't think anyone is set off by chicken breast or protein.
Right. This is what I was getting at. Trigger food meaning a broad range, not any one item.
So, do you talk to anybody about it? Is it an addiction if you can curb it? You have a great figure and you work out hard, so is it an unhealthy relationship with food or an addiction. I don't work with people with addictions (thank goodness for them, right? haha) but to my knowledge, addictions come first and foremost in people's lives above all else. You binge, apparently, but you are able to go long periods without binging. Is that still an addiction? I really don't know. I hope I am not prying too much :)
No you're not prying at all. I guess it is an addiction and that's why I can go long periods of time without doing it. If I stay away from my trigger foods I"m fine, I feel good, I don't even crave them, if I cave (this is why cheats and refeeds are so tough for me) it's down hill from there. The one thing I've learned to do which I"ve been successful at is really fighting my mind. So for example If I have a cheat, I will most certainly go overboaord, in fact I usually right off that whole day. Now the next day is when my fight begins. I know that IF I don't give in the next day my cravings will deminish, I keep telling myself that they are just cravings and I can go without them. I've done really well this way. You saw how much dessert I ate at the cheese cake factory, the rest of the weekend ws a nightmare, I just can't stop.
hsquared
09-04-2007, 08:57 PM
ok, so I have binged before but it was on food in general, including protein. I am wondering if I was just really hungry. I don't normally binge like that until I have been dieting. For example, before I started with Erik, I could eat alot but I didn't feel like I was binging. I just grazed alot at times. After working with him, working out and getting lean, I found myself binging more but then I had never dieted as long as I did with him. So, is that a hormonal thing and I needed a diet break or is that now an addiction? Can you develop an addiction through diet? After being on maintenance, I have no desire to binge. I am not avoiding it or holding myself back, I just don't want to. That doesn't seem addictive to me. I am completely monopolizing this thread! HAHA
Blondell
09-04-2007, 08:58 PM
ok, so I have binged before but it was on food in general, including protein. I am wondering if I was just really hungry. I don't normally binge like that until I have been dieting. For example, before I started with Erik, I could eat alot but I didn't feel like I was binging. I just grazed alot at times. After working with him, working out and getting lean, I found myself binging more but then I had never dieted as long as I did with him. So, is that a hormonal thing and I needed a diet break or is that now an addiction? Can you develop an addiction through diet? After being on maintenance, I have no desire to binge. I am not avoiding it or holding myself back, I just don't want to. That doesn't seem addictive to me. I am completely monopolizing this thread! HAHA
hormonal
No you're not prying at all. I guess it is an addiction and that's why I can go long periods of time without doing it. If I stay away from my trigger foods I"m fine, I feel good, I don't even crave them, if I cave (this is why cheats and refeeds are so tough for me) it's down hill from there.
EXACTLY
By definition!
The one thing I've learned to do which I"ve been successful at is really fighting my mind. So for example If I have a cheat, I will most certainly go overboaord, in fact I usually right off that whole day. Now the next day is when my fight begins. I know that IF I don't give in the next day my cravings will deminish, I keep telling myself that they are just cravings and I can go without them. I've done really well this way. You saw how much dessert I ate at the cheese cake factory, the rest of the weekend ws a nightmare, I just can't stop.
Abstinence! Abstinence!
Consider adjusting what your off plan eating is like. Otherwise you're always going to have this issue. You just said how great you feel when you're on and you don't eat your trigger foods. And how crappy you feel when you do.
hsquared
09-04-2007, 08:59 PM
Ana - that makes sense. Thanks for the explanation :)
Thunder- thanks to you too for answering all my questions!
ok, so I have binged before but it was on food in general, including protein. I am wondering if I was just really hungry. I don't normally binge like that until I have been dieting. For example, before I started with Erik, I could eat alot but I didn't feel like I was binging. I just grazed alot at times. After working with him, working out and getting lean, I found myself binging more but then I had never dieted as long as I did with him. So, is that a hormonal thing and I needed a diet break or is that now an addiction? Can you develop an addiction through diet? After being on maintenance, I have no desire to binge. I am not avoiding it or holding myself back, I just don't want to. That doesn't seem addictive to me. I am completely monopolizing this thread! HAHA
There are regulatory adjustments that happen with long term dieting. Never mind, even short term dieting. Leptin falls, negatively impacting rate of fat loss. The hormone ghrelin, which is related to hunger also increases as well so there is definitely a hormonal element here to consider in cases like this as well. I think what you're describing in this specific case is different although it could cross over as well if it included trigger foods (assuming you have trigger foods).
Coll76
09-04-2007, 09:01 PM
No you're not prying at all. I guess it is an addiction and that's why I can go long periods of time without doing it. If I stay away from my trigger foods I"m fine, I feel good, I don't even crave them, if I cave (this is why cheats and refeeds are so tough for me) it's down hill from there. The one thing I've learned to do which I"ve been successful at is really fighting my mind. So for example If I have a cheat, I will most certainly go overboaord, in fact I usually right off that whole day. Now the next day is when my fight begins. I know that IF I don't give in the next day my cravings will deminish, I keep telling myself that they are just cravings and I can go without them. I've done really well this way. You saw how much dessert I ate at the cheese cake factory, the rest of the weekend ws a nightmare, I just can't stop.
But during those long periods of time, are you not THINKING about it?
Even when I'm doing well.............I'm still THINKING of it. Maybe I haven't done well for a long enough period of time??
ritzgal
09-04-2007, 09:03 PM
No you're not prying at all. I guess it is an addiction and that's why I can go long periods of time without doing it. If I stay away from my trigger foods I"m fine, I feel good, I don't even crave them, if I cave (this is why cheats and refeeds are so tough for me) it's down hill from there. The one thing I've learned to do which I"ve been successful at is really fighting my mind. So for example If I have a cheat, I will most certainly go overboaord, in fact I usually right off that whole day. Now the next day is when my fight begins. I know that IF I don't give in the next day my cravings will deminish, I keep telling myself that they are just cravings and I can go without them. I've done really well this way. You saw how much dessert I ate at the cheese cake factory, the rest of the weekend ws a nightmare, I just can't stop.
Ana, I have experienced this recently as I've really been trying to listen more to what my body is saying and understanding why. If I have cheats, especially PM cheats, the next morning I wake up and want something awful, like PopTarts. Even though I enjoy my eggs or whatever is on plan, I still wake up and my body says, hey, you know PopTarts would taste really good right now.
I think that the comparison to alcoholism is spot on. I think societally and culturally is where the struggle is to treat food like alcohol. It's not "accepted" that food is an addiction and I think lots of people would look at you like "uhuh" if you tried to explain it to them...
not sure where you are getting all this information Erik, but let me ask if it talks about this at all.. I would say for me my trigger food would be peanut butter. BUT to completely eliminate this from my life, well, could happen, but also would be unfair to everyone else in my home who eats it in moderation. Does this book or write up or whatever it is you are getting the info from talk about how to beat the cravings of having it? Or how to overcome eating it? I guess what I am saying is is there any info on learning to issue self-control in regards to whatever your trigger food is besides abstinence of that food?:scratch:
My house is full of trigger foods, as like most of you I don't live alone and I have a family that doesn't have issues with food. I just have to be stronger than the food is PERIOD. I get my family's co operation and don't get stuff waived in my face but at the end of the day that food is there and I know it, I jut choose not to touch it and i'm successful at it most days
jlb001
09-04-2007, 09:12 PM
so glad I live alone.
Blondell
09-04-2007, 09:12 PM
My house is full of trigger foods, as like most of you I don't live alone and I have a family that doesn't have issues with food. I just have to be stronger than the food is PERIOD. I get my family's co operation and don't get stuff waived in my face but at the end of the day that food is there and I know it, I jut choose not to touch it and i'm successful at it most days
ditto.
I'm the only one in my house w/ ANY food issue at all. I refuse to have the rest of my family 'suffer' b/c I don't control myself. Either I control myself, or I gain weight from not controlling myself. Those are my options.
not sure where you are getting all this information Erik, but let me ask if it talks about this at all.. I would say for me my trigger food would be peanut butter. BUT to completely eliminate this from my life, well, could happen, but also would be unfair to everyone else in my home who eats it in moderation. Does this book or write up or whatever it is you are getting the info from talk about how to beat the cravings of having it? Or how to overcome eating it? I guess what I am saying is is there any info on learning to issue self-control in regards to whatever your trigger food is besides abstinence of that food?:scratch:
I don't know. BUT it's not a craving until you've eaten it. You can't have a physical craving unless you have eaten the food. It can be a desire for it, but it's not a craving.
For the food addict, he or she cannot just have a little. It doesn't work that way, because it's a physical phenomenon. I don't think the self control can be developed for that. Eventually, there'll be a binge again. Again. think of an alcoholic.
hsquared
09-04-2007, 09:16 PM
Does your book/info say what are the predicted statistics of the number of people that have a food addiction? I would think it would be much higher among the dieting communities but what about general society?
SusanF
09-04-2007, 09:32 PM
Do you know if there is any research that shows this runs in families? My sister and I are both like this (well, my mom as well, but she's not trying to live healthy). We've spent so much time wondering why we give in to the cravings and binge when we know how hard (and long!) we have to work to get back to where we were. I feel like I never stop thinking about food and how I look.
What's really scary is it looks like my 10 year old daughter is the same.
Someone mentioned grief at having to give up your trigger foods. For me it's chocolate and the thought of giving it up completely is almost overwhelming. I LOVE the stuff! Although, not all chocolate will make me binge. I know there are certain things that I can't have in the house (M&Ms, Costco trail mix, homemade cookies or brownies), but other stuff that I won't eat unless I'm truly desperate.
I certainly spend a lot of time wondering what it would feel like to be 'normal'. Sometimes I fantasize about living a life where I'm not focused so much on how my body looks and what I can or can't eat. I can't even remember a time where it wasn't a focus - I know it's been that way for me since at least the age of 11 or 12.
It's comforting to know that I'm not the only one fighting this battle and that others are successful in their struggles.
chelleashley
09-04-2007, 09:34 PM
Why do I crave peanut and almond butter during psmf???
chelleashley
09-04-2007, 09:35 PM
I need to read this whole thread thoroughly when I get home.
Why do I crave peanut and almond butter during psmf???
You don't 'crave' it. See thread on craving. :p
Blondell
09-04-2007, 09:35 PM
Why do I crave peanut and almond butter during psmf???
I think some cravings just come from the human nature of wanting what you can't have.
We've spent so much time wondering why we give in to the cravings and binge when we know how hard (and long!) we have to work to get back to where we were. I feel like I never stop thinking about food and how I look.
I certainly spend a lot of time wondering what it would feel like to be 'normal'. Sometimes I fantasize about living a life where I'm not focused so much on how my body looks and what I can or can't eat.
It's comforting to know that I'm not the only one fighting this battle and that others are successful in their struggles.
:ditto:
BSNJunkie
09-04-2007, 09:36 PM
I don't know where I fall into this. I am sure I have issues .
Have I binged ,yes, but only when dieting, more of a response oftaking a cheat and trying to make the most of it since I only get to eat what I want that one time. Have I purged yes. Not regularly but I have.
And I have just a little, most times. I had AM 3 meal only refeeds and always got back on plan. Did my other food sound good after eating refeed foods not so much. I would not say I crave all sugar either. Candy ( other than chocolate) I don't even like.
Do I have body image issues yes. My concept of self worth is directly linked to my appearance. It is sad but is something that has been ingrained in my head since I was a child.
strongchick
09-04-2007, 09:42 PM
Thank you for bringing this up, Erik. I think you did point out somewhere the difference between the emotional craving/addictions and the effect of dieting (hormonal gherlin, leptin issues).
In terms of the addiction, fMRI show that for some people seeing something they would crave (trigger food) activates the same dopaminergic brain areas activated in addicts when they see their alcohol/cocaine/morphine.
So I do think there is a definitive difference between the diet-induced cravings (where you would eat anything...protein, etc) and the more psychologically induced cravings.
What I find interesting is that those psychological cravings are always sugar/fat. Something about the physical response to those foods...serotonin increase maybe?...activates that initial DA pathway, causing the cascade to begin...
thefuture
09-04-2007, 10:02 PM
On the topic of disturbed body image and how it ties in, it's said that self disgust is a byproduct of food addiction. Dissatisfaction with the body and body parts is part of the process. As a person eats addictively, fear and hatred of fat drives the person crazy. It's impossible to feel self worth when eating is out of control.
There's a direct correlation b/w what happens to the addict physically and the level of self esteem.
The more weight gained for example, the more self loathing experienced. The more the person curses themselves for their weakness. They blame themselves, instead of the actual disease.
Also read that 'weighing is the addiction within the addiction'. If it drops, elation. If it goes up, despair. The scale is the ruler of the food addict's universe. That number can make or break the day.
This is me. I know I shouldn't weight myself everyday, but I do. I actually weight myself in the morning and before I go to bed.
thefuture
09-04-2007, 10:09 PM
Again, by the definitions ....
If a food can set you off and is a trigger food for you to need to eat more of it ... well, that's one thing they say all food addicts have in common.
And sugar, is the most common one.
And you just hit it on what I said in the craving thread. Cravings only come AFTER a food is introduced. Not before. It's another indicator.
Best course of action for to avoid this is to steer clear of whatever your trigger is.
I crave sugar like the majority of other people here. Sometimes I crave something sweet after I've eaten protein & veg or had an omelette (sp) with peppers and onions in it for lunch/dinner. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I crave sugar before I've eaten the sugar. (Make sense)
chelleashley
09-04-2007, 10:09 PM
You don't 'crave' it. See thread on craving. :p
:lol: I'm glad you don't think so...:p Okay, not a craving...probably just knowing you can't have what you want....:sadface:
I crave sugar like the majority of other people here. Sometimes I crave something sweet after I've eaten protein & veg or had an omelette (sp) with peppers and onions in it for lunch/dinner. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I crave sugar before I've eaten the sugar. (Make sense)
Then it's not by definition, a craving. Cravings are a physical phenomenon; like a tissue hunger. See other thread on craving.
chelleashley
09-04-2007, 10:17 PM
I crave sugar like the majority of other people here. Sometimes I crave something sweet after I've eaten protein & veg or had an omelette (sp) with peppers and onions in it for lunch/dinner. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I crave sugar before I've eaten the sugar. (Make sense)
Me too...but apparently it's not a craving...:rolleyes: :lol3: I find if I get in the 'habit' of eating something sweet after meals...then when I stop...oh hell yeah...my mind tells me :wth:...where's the sugar??????
thefuture
09-04-2007, 10:26 PM
Me too...but apparently it's not a craving...:rolleyes: :lol3: I find if I get in the 'habit' of eating something sweet after meals...then when I stop...oh hell yeah...my mind tells me :wth:...where's the sugar??????
I don't know how to describe my feeling. I can eat protein/veg and about an hour later, I feel like something sweet. Sometimes I resist but the majority of times I go and get crackers and jam, or raisin bran cereal. It's like I'm not satisfied until I eat carbs? :scratch:
ETA: This is an excellent thread.
Visionquester
09-04-2007, 10:51 PM
I spent the day at Borders Bookstore reading "Overcoming Binge Eating" by Christopher Fairburn. I really enjoyed this book, because now I see there is hope for recovery for me.
This is absolutely NOT a 12-step type of program. (Yay...I don't have to admit a thing to anyone!)
I had quite the laundry list of foods that were "off limits" and considered "trigger" foods. Foods that no matter how many times I tried to eat one serving, I ended up scarfing down a ton more. I have record of it all in my blog.
I am currently working the approximate 6 month program (depending on my progress) included in the back of the book. One of the last steps is reintroducing trigger foods back into the diet in moderation. This program uses a cognitive-behavioral approach and focuses on eliminating the "all or nothing" thinking that can lead to bingeing.
I am really stoked to be able to keep peanutbutter and bread in the house if not for me, then for my family.
I don't know if I will compete again. It depends on if I can overcome binge eating in time to diet down. 'Cause I am NOT going through another precontest behaving the way I did last time. I must have gained at least 50 pounds and lost them all a dozen times or so. Not really that good for the mental health.
~C.
Patricia
09-04-2007, 10:57 PM
I absolutely postiviely believe in this...and people who have never had a binge eating disorder..[ya know, where you are literally standing in front of the fridge shoveling anything and everything into your mouth (even though your belly is huge and you are very very full) and then start rumaging through the cabinets eating crap you don't even really crave or want while dieting] will never understand.
It's like alcoholism to me. If I give in to one bite I end up bingeing. Big time.
I have to stay away completely.
Patricia
09-04-2007, 11:04 PM
I spent the day at Borders Bookstore reading "Overcoming Binge Eating" by Christopher Fairburn. I really enjoyed this book, because now I see there is hope for recovery for me.
This is absolutely NOT a 12-step type of program. (Yay...I don't have to admit a thing to anyone!)
I had quite the laundry list of foods that were "off limits" and considered "trigger" foods. Foods that no matter how many times I tried to eat one serving, I ended up scarfing down a ton more. I have record of it all in my blog.
I am currently working the approximate 6 month program (depending on my progress) included in the back of the book. One of the last steps is reintroducing trigger foods back into the diet in moderation. This program uses a cognitive-behavioral approach and focuses on eliminating the "all or nothing" thinking that can lead to bingeing.
I am really stoked to be able to keep peanutbutter and bread in the house if not for me, then for my family.
I don't know if I will compete again. It depends on if I can overcome binge eating in time to diet down. 'Cause I am NOT going through another precontest behaving the way I did last time. I must have gained at least 50 pounds and lost them all a dozen times or so. Not really that good for the mental health.
~C.
Problem is..it's my mind. I don't have 'trigger foods'..anything off 'plan' is a trigger for me. Any deviation and I say "aw, hell" and it leads to a binge...on anything and everything...carbs, fats, proteins..good fats...anything.
I put this in the craving thread, but this is also what's said about food addiction.
It's said that all food addicts have one thing in common - once they eat a trigger food, it sets off and develops the craving for more of it.
A lot of people think/assume the craving is mental. Thought the same, until I started a low carb diet and suddenly was able to walk down the aisles laden with junkfood and not even be tempted by it.
yet, whenever I'd eat something as seemingly innocent as rice cakes (especially the flavoured ones), i"d simply be unable to stop at 1 or 2, but just felt compelled to eat all of the rice cakes in the roll.
A couple of months ago, I noticed that all of a sudden I no longer felt compelled to do this. Instead, I ate the 2-3 rice cakes I'd planned to eat, felt satisfied and stopped eating.
I'm having an idea what happened, but it's still an amazing thing.
It was probably caused not just by getting more insulin sensitive now I've got a lower weight/bf%, but also since I'm supplementing with fat-soluble vitamin B1. I'd never paid much attention to vitamins, but apparently B1 helps with carb metabolism. I've been taking it religiously for about 4-6 months now in varying doses. It's fabulous. Who'd have thunk that it's not just insulin resistance or rather impaired glucose tolerance, that can make you overeat on carbs, but also a vitamin deficiency!
Now I still have some cravings, but it's peanuts compared to how bad it used to be.
ritzgal
09-04-2007, 11:31 PM
Do you know if there is any research that shows this runs in families? My sister and I are both like this (well, my mom as well, but she's not trying to live healthy). We've spent so much time wondering why we give in to the cravings and binge when we know how hard (and long!) we have to work to get back to where we were. I feel like I never stop thinking about food and how I look.
What's really scary is it looks like my 10 year old daughter is the same.
Someone mentioned grief at having to give up your trigger foods. For me it's chocolate and the thought of giving it up completely is almost overwhelming. I LOVE the stuff! Although, not all chocolate will make me binge. I know there are certain things that I can't have in the house (M&Ms, Costco trail mix, homemade cookies or brownies), but other stuff that I won't eat unless I'm truly desperate.
I certainly spend a lot of time wondering what it would feel like to be 'normal'. Sometimes I fantasize about living a life where I'm not focused so much on how my body looks and what I can or can't eat. I can't even remember a time where it wasn't a focus - I know it's been that way for me since at least the age of 11 or 12.
It's comforting to know that I'm not the only one fighting this battle and that others are successful in their struggles.
:yeahthat:
Brandy
09-04-2007, 11:33 PM
Problem is..it's my mind. I don't have 'trigger foods'..anything off 'plan' is a trigger for me. Any deviation and I say "aw, hell" and it leads to a binge...on anything and everything...carbs, fats, proteins..good fats...anything.
:yeahthat:
I'm glad to read this research. Instead of thinking "just stop eating" or "just put the food down". Cause it's a little more complex than that.
Visionquester
09-04-2007, 11:42 PM
Problem is..it's my mind. I don't have 'trigger foods'..anything off 'plan' is a trigger for me. Any deviation and I say "aw, hell" and it leads to a binge...on anything and everything...carbs, fats, proteins..good fats...anything.
That problem is adressed as well. The book goes into detail about the different types of binge eating. I do the same thing as you except my mind says, "might as well". That is the perfectionist in us. If we don't follow something 100%, then we "might as well" go ahead and clear out the pantry while we're at it.
I have had this problem for a long time, but it was dormant for years until I did the whole precontest diet down thing.
~C.
jackieleigh
09-04-2007, 11:53 PM
This is a really good topic. I hope people will start to understand that food is an addiction. That Eating Disorders ARE diseases. ED patients get put down all the time because people just dont understand that it is not in their control. No one wants to weight 65 pounds and be fed through a tube, no one wants to scarf down a box of cereal and a jar of peanut butter only to have to make love to their toilet after...
And I truly feel that the longer and deeper the diet, the harder it becomes. For some people it is never an issue, but for people with chemical inblanaces diets can be HUGE triggers for ED behaviors
Recovery is a hard long process, but it IS possible
Patricia
09-05-2007, 12:05 AM
That problem is adressed as well. The book goes into detail about the different types of binge eating. I do the same thing as you except my mind says, "might as well". That is the perfectionist in us. If we don't follow something 100%, then we "might as well" go ahead and clear out the pantry while we're at it.
I have had this problem for a long time, but it was dormant for years until I did the whole precontest diet down thing.
~C.
Me,too.
I have always had this problem, too...but it never EVER got so bad as it does now that I have begun competing. Cheating takes on a whole new meaning. :nonono:
Patricia
09-05-2007, 12:06 AM
I just want to be normal. It seems as if I am either dieting..or bingeing..and trying to stay one step ahead of the binge weight gain KWIM?
ritzgal
09-05-2007, 12:09 AM
I just want to be normal. It seems as if I am either dieting..or bingeing..and trying to stay one step ahead of the binge weight gain KWIM?
WERD. I actually don't even know what it means to be "normal?" I get so sick of thinking about every damn thing that goes in my mouth, whether it's a good thing or a bad thing. :sadface:
Patricia
09-05-2007, 12:13 AM
Yep. I am envious of my b/f. We used to be binge enablers...but, only on Sunday (national binge day of course!)...we'd go for breakfast, lunch, dinner...stop at walmart and get family sized bags of m&ms and cakes....
finish it all off...and repeat next weekend.
He has managed to be able to have a piece of chocolate or two every other day and that's it. Then again, he has never experienced the restriction of contest dieting. It's harder than eating 'healthy'..mentally it is anyway. I mean, when you are just trying to lose weight or just trying to eat 'better; and come 8pm and you are STARVING, you can without guilt have a handful of almonds or an apple and be ok with it. But, comp dieitng is a whole nother game-esp for those with binge tendencies.
Visionquester
09-05-2007, 12:13 AM
I don't know how to describe my feeling. I can eat protein/veg and about an hour later, I feel like something sweet. Sometimes I resist but the majority of times I go and get crackers and jam, or raisin bran cereal. It's like I'm not satisfied until I eat carbs? :scratch:
ETA: This is an excellent thread.
How many bowls? I am a "3 bowler".
~C.
Brandi
09-05-2007, 12:22 AM
On the topic of disturbed body image and how it ties in, it's said that self disgust is a byproduct of food addiction. Dissatisfaction with the body and body parts is part of the process. As a person eats addictively, fear and hatred of fat drives the person crazy. It's impossible to feel self worth when eating is out of control.
There's a direct correlation b/w what happens to the addict physically and the level of self esteem.
The more weight gained for example, the more self loathing experienced. The more the person curses themselves for their weakness. They blame themselves, instead of the actual disease.
Also read that 'weighing is the addiction within the addiction'. If it drops, elation. If it goes up, despair. The scale is the ruler of the food addict's universe. That number can make or break the day.
This makes me wanna cry because it's me. :(
Patricia
09-05-2007, 12:28 AM
See for me, there is no self loathing or anything like that.
I have no idea what makes me really binge once I get going.
For instance...
this is a story of one binge and how it started...
Driving along to take my daughter somewhere....
hungry....
had cashews in the car...
cashews are NOT in my plan....but aren't totally bad either...
just looked at them...
back and forth to eat or not to eat...
telling myself it would lead to a binge...I know it.
almost without thinking about it I start eating them.
Ok. Fine. Ate about 6. all of them.
But, proceed to drive to a mexican restauranr with my daughter and eat there. Then go to dessert place and get HUGE piece of chocolate cake....
then when I get back home eat stuff from the fridge, pantry...stuff I don't even crave...fig newtons? Dry cereal? All standing in the kitchen and completely mindless...like I am in a zone.
It's just crazy.
And I mean I eat and eat and eat to the point where it is PAINFUL to lay on my stomach.
ETA- most people would have been able to stop after the cashews. That would have been ok. Why couldn't I? I don't get it.
Brandi
09-05-2007, 12:35 AM
Yeah, I have the self loathing thing... to the point that I've gained 30 pounds in the past year and about 80 pounds the year before that. I have binged and felt so out of body that I seemed to be buzzing, like when you are drunk. In all honesty, I am so ashamed to be me and look like this. I understand how people don't leave their houses and Maury Povich has to come in and get them. When I go out to eat with friends I hear their voices in their heads saying "Woah, slow down, Tubby, you think you need all that?"
The scary part is yeah, I have a bunch of weight to lose, but I am not 500 pounds or anything. That just shows the pychological aspect of it.
I just want to be normal. It seems as if I am either dieting..or bingeing..and trying to stay one step ahead of the binge weight gain KWIM?
Yep, the whole time i'm bingeing i'm thinking i can starve myself and or only eat protein for 3 days and no harm done :sad: I'm not really even enjoying my food. It's sick :(
Yep, the whole time i'm bingeing i'm thinking i can starve myself and or only eat protein for 3 days and no harm done :sad: I'm not really even enjoying my food. It's sick :(
Compensatory behaviour. Reinforces the cycle.
BSNJunkie
09-05-2007, 01:25 AM
I crave sugar like the majority of other people here. Sometimes I crave something sweet after I've eaten protein & veg or had an omelette (sp) with peppers and onions in it for lunch/dinner. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I crave sugar before I've eaten the sugar. (Make sense)
Do sweet things with out sugar make this feeling go away? I feel this way a lot after meals, wanting sweet. If i have a diet soda or yellow squash with cinnamon and splenda it goes away. but i think for me it is more about having something that i like rather than having sugar. I have never liked meat but i eat it. Not so bad if you can hide it in a sandwhich or something but with just veggies it can get old.
ritzgal
09-05-2007, 01:30 AM
Compensatory behaviour. Reinforces the cycle.
In the sense that it *might* lessen the damage done, therefore reinforcing the cycle, or that it creates excuses or ways out?
vtchick
09-05-2007, 01:38 AM
OMG this is me to a T. I had a bad binge last week with pizza...and ever since, it's all I've wanted. DH knows that we just can't have it in the house anymore, because I just cannot stop myself. For the most part, since working with Erik, I have been able to keep the binges under control (mostly for fear of disappointing the Boss with my bi-weekly)...but lately with my schedule being all jacked up, I've felt out of control. Also, before working with E, I would completely engage in compensatory behaviors after a binge. I'm not nearly as bad now, but I just have this self-loathing after ward.
It's almost comforting to know that I'm not alone in this...
In the sense that it *might* lessen the damage done, therefore reinforcing the cycle, or that it creates excuses or ways out?
It's compensatory behaviour that reinforces bad habits. It's like bingeing on Monday and then doing 2 hours of cardio and not eating the next day. Compensatory. It's reinforcing bad eating behaviours.
Wow. I can relate to so much of this. DH and I were talking about the information in this thread and he agrees it describes my food issues with amazing accuracy.
Patricia
09-05-2007, 02:37 AM
It's compensatory behaviour that reinforces bad habits. It's like bingeing on Monday and then doing 2 hours of cardio and not eating the next day. Compensatory. It's reinforcing bad eating behaviours.
I totally understand this.
But, what if one binges and never tries to 'make up for it.' They would continue to take steps backward, no?
I get what you are saying...but, to me, compensating keeps me one step ahead.
ritzgal
09-05-2007, 02:39 AM
I totally understand this.
But, what if one binges and never tries to 'make up for it.' They would continue to take steps backward, no?
I get what you are saying...but, to me, compensating keeps me one step ahead.
I see it like taking two steps forward, one step back. If you know you can do extra cardio or skip meals then it somehow rationalizes it? :shrug:
Blondell
09-05-2007, 02:42 AM
Many times people are drawn to the fitness lifestyle b/c it caters to food issues. Of course, this is JMO. It was certainly a driving force in my lifestyle choice. Thinking about food all day, trying to figure out what I'm going to eat, how much am I going to eat, how many calories it comes to, how can I get more food w/ that same amount of calories................on and on and on and on........
This would be my train of thought day in and day out. It has gotten better, but if I don't watch it, it becomes an issue again......EASILY.
I totally understand this.
But, what if one binges and never tries to 'make up for it.' They would continue to take steps backward, no?
I get what you are saying...but, to me, compensating keeps me one step ahead.
If you're looking at it from a fat loss perspective perhaps. But the bigger issue here is the food addiction, etc. Not dieting.
I think getting back to normal eating is the better step. Not partaking in any compensatory behaviours. That'd be a step in the right direction.
Why? Because the compensatory behaviours don't add up to much anyway. So you do extra cardio the next day - the extra session burns little anyway. You eat less than you normally would ... which would be in a deficit anyway (assuming we're talking dieting), so how much more does that net you? Not much.
No one blows up with fat from a binge. Weight, sure. But not fat. Unless of course the frequency is a bit out of control.
diddledee
09-05-2007, 02:44 AM
Since I work in addictions, we have this discussion regularly (me and the docs) about is food addiction (food, sex, other things) a real addiction. Funny to me how many do not see it as such. Usually the really overweight guys...:wink:
Patricia
09-05-2007, 02:49 AM
If you're looking at it from a fat loss perspective perhaps. But the bigger issue here is the food addiction, etc. Not dieting.
I think getting back to normal eating is the better step. Not partaking in any compensatory behaviours. That'd be a step in the right direction.
Why? Because the compensatory behaviours don't add up to much anyway. So you do extra cardio the next day - the extra session burns little anyway. You eat less than you normally would ... which would be in a deficit anyway (assuming we're talking dieting), so how much more does that net you? Not much.
No one blows up with fat from a binge. Weight, sure. But not fat. Unless of course the frequency is a bit out of control.
I agree.
strongchick
09-05-2007, 03:24 AM
If you're looking at it from a fat loss perspective perhaps. But the bigger issue here is the food addiction, etc. Not dieting.
I think getting back to normal eating is the better step. Not partaking in any compensatory behaviours. That'd be a step in the right direction.
Why? Because the compensatory behaviours don't add up to much anyway. So you do extra cardio the next day - the extra session burns little anyway. You eat less than you normally would ... which would be in a deficit anyway (assuming we're talking dieting), so how much more does that net you? Not much.
No one blows up with fat from a binge. Weight, sure. But not fat. Unless of course the frequency is a bit out of control.
Good advice. Some compensatory behaviors would qualify as an ED behavior, and those themselves can get addicting.
Exercise bulimia is a real diagnosis.
Cindy
09-05-2007, 03:36 AM
Many times people are drawn to the fitness lifestyle b/c it caters to food issues. Of course, this is JMO. It was certainly a driving force in my lifestyle choice. Thinking about food all day, trying to figure out what I'm going to eat, how much am I going to eat, how many calories it comes to, how can I get more food w/ that same amount of calories................on and on and on and on........
This would be my train of thought day in and day out. It has gotten better, but if I don't watch it, it becomes an issue again......EASILY.
A way to counteract the overeating and a sense of control over yourself.
Liza608
09-05-2007, 03:44 AM
Just got in to this thread, and I just wanted to say it's very interesting, thanks for posting. This totally fits me too, once I eat some things (especially sugar, but really refined carbs in general) I can't stop, and I go into the mindless 'eat anything and everything whether I want it or not' mode that others have described. It's good to know that I'm not the only one who has eaten to the point of it being painful to lay down.
And compensatory behaviors...TOTALLY me. One of the best things I got out of working with Erik was an inner monitor to realize when I was doing compensatory behavior, or contemplating it. Now I at least have the ability to recognize what I am doing and step away from it often times.
Interestingly enough, the criteria show that teh signs and symptoms of bulimia nervosa are the *same* as those of food addiction and do not exclude individuals who binge and then fast, diet and/or exercise in order to prevent weight gain.
The DSM-III-R lists and describes the diagnostic criteria for bulimia nervosa as food addiction. The essential features are recurrent episodes of binge eating, (rapid consumption of a large amount of food in a discrete time period).
It's compensatory behaviour that reinforces bad habits. It's like bingeing on Monday and then doing 2 hours of cardio and not eating the next day. Compensatory. It's reinforcing bad eating behaviours.
But that's when you overdo it. You can also use the feast-famine pattern in a positive way. When having that tendency it's much easier to either overeat/undereat by a large margin , rather than keeping a moderate average that's driving me bonkers!
Also, very interesting difference between a mental ED/addiction and a physical one, now exercise comes into view. It's always been the other way around for me.
NOT the 'OMG I have to exercise for 2 hours now that I have binged!" but instead , having appetite disappear completely for up to 48 hours when exercising HARD and then ... go in binge mode when appetite comes back again.
When others were complaining about DOMS all the time, I never got that (probably overdose of cortisol that's a natural pain killer) but DOH every single weekend! Delayed Onset of Hunger.
Nobody who's got a comment on the B1-deficiency? I've been on B12-supplmentation (as sublingual tabs) for 4 years now which made a tremendous difference in how I feel, but never guessed how much difference supplementation of B1 helped with carb metabolism. Guys/gals, if you're having trouble there I'm 100% convinced it helps more than chrome they often prescribe. I mean.. I used to also inhale bars of milk chocolate whenver I had 1 bite (not with dark chocolate) but now I can even have 1 square and then be satisified. It's freaking amazing!
Only when i'm mentally very stressed or on the worst day of my cycle (around day 20-22) I still over eat but it's not as bad as it used to be.
fitmonkey
09-05-2007, 12:56 PM
Is it possible that 75% of people are addicted to food then? It seems to me that MOST people have at least one trigger or comfort food that will cause them to binge. "I" think I obsess about food a lot, not always. I have trigger food, primarily gummy snacks. Yes it affects me mentally sometimes.
Am I addicted, no. Just because I have binges and lack of self discipline, that doesn't make me an addict. Where is that fine line?
I do not know enough about this "food" addiction, although I do believe most humans are addicted to something. Religion, Food, Porn, Drugs and Alcohol, Exercise... People find something that takes them from their reality and/or provides a chemical high for them, and they do the actions repeatedly, and not always voluntarily.
As a former needle using junky, I like to think that i know a bit on how addiction works. I think too many people will find this as an excuse for what is also know as lack of discipline. Oh, I have a disorder. I have "food addiction syndrome." Why have all these knew disorders only come about in the last hundred years? I doubt many INdians binged and purged buffalo and berries. I do believe it can be/is a feal problem, but probably too many people will be diagnosed with it.
ritzgal
09-05-2007, 01:04 PM
Something came to my mind in the cravings thread, but felt it more appropriate here. I wanted to point out that my binges (at least the severe ones) are never just because I ate x and the binge happened. Almost always there has been an underlying psychological disturbance, primarily depression. For instance, I'm alone alot with my son on weekends as my hubby works and sometimes I get depressed/overwhelmed/lonely. Since I'm home that's when my binges are likely to happen. This is not the only time they happen, but I've noticed a pattern. My hope is that getting my mind under control will get the binging under control.
I'm guessing this is still a part of food addiction even with the depression as a cause?
:blink: are you serious about the "former needle using junkie?"
If you're looking at it from a fat loss perspective perhaps. But the bigger issue here is the eating disorder/food addiction, etc. Not dieting.
I think getting back to normal eating is the better step. Not partaking in any compensatory behaviours. That'd be a step in the right direction.
Why? Because the compensatory behaviours don't add up to much anyway. So you do extra cardio the next day - the extra session burns little anyway. You eat less than you normally would ... which would be in a deficit anyway (assuming we're talking dieting), so how much more does that net you? Not much.
No one blows up with fat from a binge. Weight, sure. But not fat. Unless of course the frequency is a bit out of control.
Sometimes that gets me 'back on the wagon', though. Makes me feel like I did something about it, and started in the right direction, again. Same with say, eating very little the next day.
Not saying it's 'right' or that it helps much, but mentally it seems to set me straight.
fitmonkey
09-05-2007, 01:34 PM
:blink: are you serious about the "former needle using junkie?"
I'll address this elsewhere, but yes. Its not a conversation for this thread...
I was just gonna say "You've come a long way babay!" I really admire anyone breaking any kind of addiciton, esp one so strong..:hug:
Is it possible that 75% of people are addicted to food then? It seems to me that MOST people have at least one trigger or comfort food that will cause them to binge. "I" think I obsess about food a lot, not always. I have trigger food, primarily gummy snacks. Yes it affects me mentally sometimes.
I don't think most people do, but maybe most dieters do.
Am I addicted, no. Just because I have binges and lack of self discipline, that doesn't make me an addict. Where is that fine line?
Call it what you want. :shrug:
I do not know enough about this "food" addiction, although I do believe most humans are addicted to something. Religion, Food, Porn, Drugs and Alcohol, Exercise... People find something that takes them from their reality and/or provides a chemical high for them, and they do the actions repeatedly, and not always voluntarily.
As a former needle using junky, I like to think that i know a bit on how addiction works. I think too many people will find this as an excuse for what is also know as lack of discipline. Oh, I have a disorder. I have "food addiction syndrome."
I don't think people are looking for an excuse. It helps to understand why you are doing things that you are doing. If you know that you mentally cannot handle eating one piece of candy, and think about it as an addiction (whether it passes your definition of addiction or not), then you can treat it as such and try to overcome what is going on in your mind/body. It's a tool. Information. Not an excuse/cop out/reason for being not disciplined. If anything the information/realization will cause you to be more disciplined.
Why have all these knew disorders only come about in the last hundred years? I doubt many INdians binged and purged buffalo and berries. I do believe it can be/is a feal problem, but probably too many people will be diagnosed with it.
New environmental factors/stimuli. We don't live like pioneers anymore. More education, more studies. Should we stop discovering diseases, too? Too many people for what?
Bunny
09-05-2007, 01:49 PM
How do you determine what the trigger food is and can it be as broad as refined carbs? Can you have LOTS of trigger foods? I know for a fact waffles are a trigger food for me. I have eaten almost an entire box of Eggos before. And I eat them FROZEN. :sad:
oh I hear you Gwen! I have a lot of trigger foods too :( Strong ones for me include chocolate, cheese & bread. Definitely sugar & starch in general. Flavour is a big thing too though .... I have a chicken dish that is *really* good, but I don't make it often as it can induce the cravings same as "bad" food. Not at all sweet & I'm pretty sure it would qualify as "clean". It doesn't fall into binging, but definitely causes that craving Erik mentioned. I used to refer to my binge episodes as "hungry hippo" moments, cuz that's what it felt like, that silly game where it was a mindless eating frenzy :oops: That's not even accurate though because the min plays such sick games with itself over this stuff ....
In general, good info to think about what foods create that craving *after* eating them, seems like a good way to figure out what needs to be eliminated if at all possible from the house.
Visionquester, thanks for sharing about that book, sounds well-worth a read!
fitmonkey
09-05-2007, 01:59 PM
I don't think most people do, but maybe most dieters do. Well 90% of people I know have at least tried to diet and/or do so consistantly, and have failed. So I guess most people are addicted to food.
I don't think people are looking for an excuse. It helps to understand why you are doing things that you are doing. If you know that you mentally cannot handle eating one piece of candy, and think about it as an addiction (whether it passes your definition of addiction or not), then you can treat it as such and try to overcome what is going on in your mind/body. It's a tool. Information. Not an excuse/cop out/reason for being not disciplined. If anything the information/realization will cause you to be more disciplined.
I guess what I meant is that people will use it as an excuse. The "oh, I can't stop, I'm addicted," cop-out, will become quite common. Everyone will need a psychologist for their mental disorders.
New environmental factors/stimuli. We don't live like pioneers anymore. More education, more studies. Should we stop discovering diseases, too?
I believe discovering and treating real diseases is one thing. I believe making up diseases and syndromes for lack of self control alleviates people of their responsibility for their actions in a way.
Its hard to hold conversations over the internet, because everything I say is going to come off as an absolute belief. I'm not saying that food addiction isn't real. I just have many questions.
Is it possible that 75% of people are addicted to food then? It seems to me that MOST people have at least one trigger or comfort food that will cause them to binge. "I" think I obsess about food a lot, not always. I have trigger food, primarily gummy snacks. Yes it affects me mentally sometimes.
Am I addicted, no. Just because I have binges and lack of self discipline, that doesn't make me an addict. Where is that fine line?
By the criteria used to define food addiction ....
And you say below you don't know enough about food addiction.
I do not know enough about this "food" addiction, although I do believe most humans are addicted to something. Religion, Food, Porn, Drugs and Alcohol, Exercise... People find something that takes them from their reality and/or provides a chemical high for them, and they do the actions repeatedly, and not always voluntarily.
I don't agree at all. Most people are not addicted to something, not in the sense of a physical/physiological one.
Addiction has a biological basis related to the way the brain uses its neurotransmitters. An addict doesn't decide to use use chemicals; he is compelled to do so. His brain and body operate in an addictive manner in the presence of addictive substances. It operates at the physiological level, no matter how hard the fight to resist.
As a former needle using junky, I like to think that i know a bit on how addiction works. I think too many people will find this as an excuse for what is also know as lack of discipline. Oh, I have a disorder. I have "food addiction syndrome." Why have all these knew disorders only come about in the last hundred years? I doubt many INdians binged and purged buffalo and berries. I do believe it can be/is a feal problem, but probably too many people will be diagnosed with it.
The diagnostic criteria for defining any addiction are similar from addiction to addiction.
I do see what you're saying - that some people will just use it as an excuse. But at the same time, there's just as many that will deny they have a problem.
Something came to my mind in the cravings thread, but felt it more appropriate here. I wanted to point out that my binges (at least the severe ones) are never just because I ate x and the binge happened. Almost always there has been an underlying psychological disturbance, primarily depression. For instance, I'm alone alot with my son on weekends as my hubby works and sometimes I get depressed/overwhelmed/lonely. Since I'm home that's when my binges are likely to happen. This is not the only time they happen, but I've noticed a pattern. My hope is that getting my mind under control will get the binging under control.
I'm guessing this is still a part of food addiction even with the depression as a cause?
H.A.L.T
Don't get too Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired.
Sometimes that gets me 'back on the wagon', though. Makes me feel like I did something about it, and started in the right direction, again. Same with say, eating very little the next day.
Not saying it's 'right' or that it helps much, but mentally it seems to set me straight.
But it really doesn't. It might get you back on the 'fat loss wagon', but it doesn't get you on the wagon to a healthy approach to eating/exercising.
I don't believe it sets anyone straight. It reinforces bad habits because you know well, if I mess up and go crazy, I'll just not eat the next day and do lots of exercise. How healthy does that even sound?
I think perhaps this can be a viable option for someone with no food issues, so it's not a recurring thing. But for someone with food issues? I think it's a bad idea from the mental side of things. Just my opinion.
Add to that, technically what did it do though? It's not like it erased whatever happened the day before. The impact of the compensatory behaviours is minimal at best. So why not just get back ON whatever your original plan was instead. Same end result yet not compensatory.
fitmonkey
09-05-2007, 02:13 PM
I think people will mix up the words "compelled" to use (which means they are almost "forced" to use/eat), or I have a strong desire to use/eat, so I will, and I give in.
Addiction to something is borderline insanity. You repeat the same action over and over again, and hoping for a different result. If you use/eat a trigger item, then you no longer can quit. You can't quit a day later, or a week later. You must do it every day, no matter what. You can't function. You can't think. You can't make it through your day without that item. If I was truly addicted to food, than I would think that I may even go so far as to be late to work because I had to drive to the next city to find my trigger food which is sold out locally. Am I wrong?
I would think that these behaviours or something slightly more mild would have to be present to qualify for food addiction. This goes way beyond the I had one chip and then I ate the whole bag thing.
strongchick
09-05-2007, 02:13 PM
Popping in to say I like the discussion.
Having seen a lot of exercise bulimics, I have to side with Erik and say that compensatory behavior isn't the best idea.
Bunny
09-05-2007, 02:16 PM
H.A.L.T
Don't get too Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired.
easier said than done! :( The first seems the easiest to control, the second, I've never found to bring on binge-fests for me, but the other two? :suicide:
Sometimes it feels like a chicken & egg question ... which came first? the depression? the binge-eating? the self-esteem issues? the tiredness? etc ... it's easy to get caught in an endless loop. *part* of it I know is recognizing the feelings & thinking & re-conditioning oneself out of the all-or-nothing mentality .. and beyond that, for me, it's a matter of chipping away a little bit at a time at different issues.
Well 90% of people I know have at least tried to diet and/or do so consistantly, and have failed. So I guess most people are addicted to food.
How do you figure that anyone that fails a diet is a food addict?
I guess what I meant is that people will use it as an excuse. The "oh, I can't stop, I'm addicted," cop-out, will become quite common. Everyone will need a psychologist for their mental disorders.
The point is, it IS a real problem. Why, because it's about food, does it seem like it'd be a cop out, but with alcohol or drugs it's not? Food behaves like a drug in the body. Think of the neurotransmitter response - the 'feel good' serotonin effects.
All addiction by definition involves the compulsive pursuit of a mood change by engaging repeatedly ina process despite adverse consequences.
The hypothalamus is the specific area of the brain associated with addiction. In addiction there's a problem with the endorphin/enkaphalin metabolism (theorized anyway). These are pain relieving/pleasure inducing substances.
Serotonin is a calming chemical. When the brain is using it, you don't feel stress or tension. Studies show that altered function of serotonin may be playing a big role in mediating the prominent clinical symptoms of bulimia. The calm feeling which is produced from high carbohydrate foods plays a role in food addiction.
Every time an addict ingests an addictve substance, the disease is triggered at the physiological level. It's not just in a person's head.
I think people will mix up the words "compelled" to use (which means they are almost "forced" to use/eat), or I have a strong desire to use/eat, so I will, and I give in.
Addiction to something is borderline insanity. You repeat the same action over and over again, and hoping for a different result. If you use/eat a trigger item, then you no longer can quit. You can't quit a day later, or a week later. You must do it every day, no matter what. You can't function. You can't think. You can't make it through your day without that item. If I was truly addicted to food, than I would think that I may even go so far as to be late to work because I had to drive to the next city to find my trigger food which is sold out locally. Am I wrong?
I would think that these behaviours or something slightly more mild would have to be present to qualify for food addiction. This goes way beyond the I had one chip and then I ate the whole bag thing.
You're not quite understanding it no.
No one said it was a matter of eating one chip and eating the whole bag.
easier said than done! :( The first seems the easiest to control, the second, I've never found to bring on binge-fests for me, but the other two? :suicide:
Agreed.
But a recovering food addict HAS to take action, right? When a person feels an urge, they have to find out what the real need is answer THAT need. We already know the bingeing choice isn't the answer, since it just makes you feel worse.
No doubt, very hard.
Sometimes it feels like a chicken & egg question ... which came first? the depression? the binge-eating? the self-esteem issues? the tiredness? etc ... it's easy to get caught in an endless loop. *part* of it I know is recognizing the feelings & thinking & re-conditioning oneself out of the all-or-nothing mentality .. and beyond that, for me, it's a matter of chipping away a little bit at a time at different issues.
Agreed.
Bunny
09-05-2007, 02:30 PM
oh yes, definitely to the action! It's tricky to switch from one focus to another sometimes in the battle. I tend to focus a lot of energy on *one* aspect, then be too drained to deal with others & find those other parts snowballing.
I think the idea of replacement is pretty interesting. Try to create an addiction to something healthy? and/or re-train the neural pathways t no longer be set off to venture into addiction territory? I've focused more on the re-training/trying to break "bad"/damaging habits aspect, and haven't thought so much about replacement/figuring out alternative ways to fulfill the underlying need, so interesting thought.
But it really doesn't. It might get you back on the 'fat loss wagon', but it doesn't get you on the wagon to a healthy approach to eating/exercising.
I don't believe it sets anyone straight. It reinforces bad habits because you know well, if I mess up and go crazy, I'll just not eat the next day and do lots of exercise. How healthy does that even sound?
I think perhaps this can be a viable option for someone with no food issues, so it's not a recurring thing. But for someone with food issues? I think it's a bad idea from the mental side of things. Just my opinion.
Add to that, technically what did it do though? It's not like it erased whatever happened the day before. The impact of the compensatory behaviours is minimal at best. So why not just get back ON whatever your original plan was instead. Same end result yet not compensatory.
Because sometimes it's hard to get back ON my plan if I don't do something drastic.
And this does not happen to me...the cycle...I don't binge...exercise...binge....exercise. Usually it is a one time occurrence...and then back on. Or even...several day occurrence...and get back on. But it definitely takes an attitude overhaul. A STOP...what are you doing? To get me back on.
I see what you are saying. I'm not sure how my behaviours fit in here...or even if it is an addiction. But I know I have a problem with eating some foods or eating off plan.
I guess I mostly just get back on plan...but I have done EXTRA activity and EXTRA dieting to get things started. :shrug:
chelleashley
09-05-2007, 02:33 PM
I personally think that there are people out there that have addiction 'tendencies'. My fiance is one. He had drug addictions when he was younger, then smoking, etc. He seems to always be 'addicted' to something. Myself, not so much. I tried drugs, and it was meh...couldn't be bothered. I used to smoke...and quit cold turkey when I found out I was pregnant, with no 'side effects'. I can still smoke the odd one here and there without 'needing' another one. Or go out drinking (which always leads to smoking) and not touch them again for weeks. (I don't want to hear speeches, I know it's bad...I used to work for a lab that tested the components of first and second hand smoke :uhuh: ) As far as food? It's all in my head. I don't 'need' it or 'crave' it. I just want it. :shrug: And I have no self control. That's all it boils down to. So how does someone like me expose herself to highly addictive substances and not be affected? And others do become affected, to the point it becomes harmful? I think it's just something someone is predispositioned to.
but then maybe I need more :coffee: this morning...:lol3:
chelleashley
09-05-2007, 02:35 PM
oh yes, definitely to the action! It's tricky to switch from one focus to another sometimes in the battle. I tend to focus a lot of energy on *one* aspect, then be too drained to deal with others & find those other parts snowballing.
I think the idea of replacement is pretty interesting. Try to create an addiction to something healthy? and/or re-train the neural pathways t no longer be set off to venture into addiction territory? I've focused more on the re-training/trying to break "bad"/damaging habits aspect, and haven't thought so much about replacement/figuring out alternative ways to fulfill the underlying need, so interesting thought.
Well if my theory is right..then this would defenitely work.
I guess I mostly just get back on plan...but I have done EXTRA activity and EXTRA dieting to get things started. :shrug:
When you make that decision, do you think or feel that it actually makes a difference in what's going on in your body? Like it does compensate for any 'increase' from the day(s) before? That the extra activity has 'burned fat' or something?
Here's another thought. When this happens...say in the morning or middle of the day...even at night. Ron always tells me..well, just stop eating. :shrug: But that NEVER works. Never. He says, it doesn't start tomorrow, it starts NOW. I just can't do it. I can start fresh the next day, but I have never been successful at stopping it on the same day it has started.
When you make that decision, do you think or feel that it actually makes a difference in what's going on in your body? Like it does compensate for any 'increase' from the day(s) before? That the extra activity has 'burned fat' or something?
No, not really. Just a mental cue that says...'You are back on'.
fitmonkey
09-05-2007, 02:41 PM
You're not quite understanding it no.
No one said it was a matter of eating one chip and eating the whole bag.
No, I do understand that its more than that. What I was saying is that people may get confused and think that because they can't stop eating chips once they start, that they have the real disorder of "Food Addiction," As opposed to the disordered behaviour I discussed earlier in my quote, of being unable to function, or work, or accomplish tasks in their daily lives, without said food item/s.
Also...Erik talked about keeping stuff in the house...and it's not a craving until you eat it. So true. I can have anything in the house when I am on my diet. UNTIL I eat it. Then the bag will be gone. And until I get it out of my system, I have to clear the house. Then, once I am feeling ok, again...I can have it in the house and even serve it to the kids.
No, I do understand that its more than that. What I was saying is that people may get confused and think that because they can't stop eating chips once they start, that they have the real disorder of "Food Addiction," As opposed to the disordered behaviour I discussed earlier in my quote, of being unable to function, or work, or accomplish tasks in their daily lives, without said food item/s.
Hmmm interesting. I will eat myself into a place where I feel so fat I don't want to leave the house. I don't want to see anyone, and I will not take care of myself. This does, in a sense disable me. But CAN I perform those tasks...yes. Do I? Often not.
But would I wake up not feeling that I can function without candy corn..no. Never that. So, I guess it would differ from some of those more mind altering addictions like drugs.
No, I do understand that its more than that. What I was saying is that people may get confused and think that because they can't stop eating chips once they start, that they have the real disorder of "Food Addiction," As opposed to the disordered behaviour I discussed earlier in my quote, of being unable to function, or work, or accomplish tasks in their daily lives, without said food item/s.
That's not how it's defined though. That's not even how any addiction is defined. There will be degrees of effect on a person depending on how long they've been battling an addiction. For example, increased tolerance to something mandates the need for more than someone who has yet to hit that point of tolerance. There is no reverse tolerance that happens as can be seen in alcoholics.
Bbsession, compulsion, denial, tolerance, withdrawal syndrome and craving - all common to the food addict (plus distorted body image). These will be present in varying degrees from individual to individual. It's not an all or nothing thing.
Compulsion - the loss of control or the inability to stop eating after one bite of a binge food. The food addict may be able to stop for indeterminate periods, but despite all resolutions, will binge again. The inability to control eating is a certain sign of addiction. Loss of control - that is addiction.
Tolerance - the body's ability to endure contact with a substance. For the food addict, as food intake increases, the physiological level of tolerance to binge food increases. The body depends on the presence of refined carbs and develops the need for greater quantities. One bite is too many, a thousand not enough.
You're making the mistake of assuming that addiction has only one degree I think.
I personally made the mistake of thinking blah, get some self control you weak-willed 'person' (:lol:). However, educating myself on all this stuff? It's definitely not always about that. Sometimes? For sure. There HAS to be self control exercised .... even in the food addict though. That is, avoiding the triggers.
I personally made the mistake of thinking blah, get some self control you weak-willed 'person' (:lol:). However, educating myself on all this stuff? It's definitely not always about that. Sometimes? For sure. There HAS to be self control exercised .... even in the food addict though. That is, avoiding the triggers.
:pimpslap:
I personally made the mistake of thinking blah, get some self control you weak-willed 'person' (:lol:). However, educating myself on all this stuff? It's definitely not always about that. Sometimes? For sure. There HAS to be self control exercised .... even in the food addict though. That is, avoiding the triggers.
Many ppl don't understand it, don't suffer from it or simply just don't care, but education is key and you did just that. :lub:
Many ppl don't understand it, don't suffer from it or simply just don't care, but education is key and you did just that. :lub:
Oh, common. I like the :pimpslap: better.
:catfight:
Patricia
09-05-2007, 03:29 PM
Sometimes that gets me 'back on the wagon', though. Makes me feel like I did something about it, and started in the right direction, again. Same with say, eating very little the next day.
Not saying it's 'right' or that it helps much, but mentally it seems to set me straight.
Same here.
It would make me feel 10x worse and then possibly lead to another day of eating bad or skipping the gym if I did not do something that in my mind made it even slightly better.
Oh, common. I like the :pimpslap: better.
:catfight:
:whistling: You think I have a death wish? Girl pls I know my limits I can't get away with that :poledance:
Patricia
09-05-2007, 03:32 PM
Here's another thought. When this happens...say in the morning or middle of the day...even at night. Ron always tells me..well, just stop eating. :shrug: But that NEVER works. Never. He says, it doesn't start tomorrow, it starts NOW. I just can't do it. I can start fresh the next day, but I have never been successful at stopping it on the same day it has started.
Me, too.
That's not how it's defined though. That's not even how any addiction is defined. There will be degrees of effect on a person depending on how long they've been battling an addiction. For example, increased tolerance to something mandates the need for more than someone who has yet to hit that point of tolerance. There is no reverse tolerance that happens as can be seen in alcoholics.
I think Fitmonkey may be confusing addiction with psychological disorders. From my understanding, to be diagnosed with a psych. disorder (ie: obsessive compulsive disorder) you have to be to the point of having it disable you in daily life. Many people may be a few standard deviations from the mean (ie: more compulsive than others), but unless the compulsion leads to impaired living, its not considered a disorder.
Addiction is not the same as a psych. disease, though.
Having been a former smoker, I can certainly see the similarities between an addiction to nicotine and an addicition to food. I once even considered writing an article about using the methods one uses to quit smoking in order to adhere to a diet, because of the similarities I have experienced.
Coll76
09-05-2007, 03:42 PM
When I google sugar addiction, I came up with an article that sugar can have the same addicting effects as crack. I should look it up again. It may be a good explanation on why so many of us are affected by refined sugars.
ritzgal
09-05-2007, 04:06 PM
But it really doesn't. It might get you back on the 'fat loss wagon', but it doesn't get you on the wagon to a healthy approach to eating/exercising.
I don't believe it sets anyone straight. It reinforces bad habits because you know well, if I mess up and go crazy, I'll just not eat the next day and do lots of exercise. How healthy does that even sound?
I think perhaps this can be a viable option for someone with no food issues, so it's not a recurring thing. But for someone with food issues? I think it's a bad idea from the mental side of things. Just my opinion.
Add to that, technically what did it do though? It's not like it erased whatever happened the day before. The impact of the compensatory behaviours is minimal at best. So why not just get back ON whatever your original plan was instead. Same end result yet not compensatory.
This is what hits home for me in the situation I referenced above. It in no way deals with WHY I binged. :shrug:
mich56
09-05-2007, 04:09 PM
Wow. I can relate to so much of this. DH and I were talking about the information in this thread and he agrees it describes my food issues with amazing accuracy.
:yeahthat:
Ditto for me too
ritzgal
09-05-2007, 04:09 PM
easier said than done! :( The first seems the easiest to control, the second, I've never found to bring on binge-fests for me, but the other two? :suicide:
Sometimes it feels like a chicken & egg question ... which came first? the depression? the binge-eating? the self-esteem issues? the tiredness? etc ... it's easy to get caught in an endless loop. *part* of it I know is recognizing the feelings & thinking & re-conditioning oneself out of the all-or-nothing mentality .. and beyond that, for me, it's a matter of chipping away a little bit at a time at different issues.
This is my struggle and I'm trying really hard to stop, listen to what my mind/body is saying, and respond accordingly instead of just letting it tell me what to do. It's a damn hard struggle...
OK, I'm totally new here, so maybe I'm out of line. I'm an actively recovering bulimic, and IMHO, the advice being given out here on how to deal with compulsive eating and bingeing is way, way, terribly off.
I suggest that anyone who really truly wants to be free of bingeing for the rest of their life buy the following book, "Breaking Free from Emotional Eating" formally published as "Breaking Free from Compulsive Eating" by Geneen Roth.
You may also wish to buy the following books by the same author, "When Food is Love", "Feeding the Hungry Heart", and "When You Eat at the Refrigerator Pull Up A Chair."
You don't have to live like this. And you don't have to give up or abstain from these foods either. In fact, denying yourself these foods and feeling ashamed about yourself are the exact things causing the behavior in the first place.
ritzgal
09-05-2007, 04:38 PM
I honestly don't understand how you can treat food differently than any other addictive substance. Alcoholics don't learn to reintroduce alcohol to their lives do they?
Blondell
09-05-2007, 04:45 PM
I honestly don't understand how you can treat food differently than any other addictive substance. Alcoholics don't learn to reintroduce alcohol to their lives do they?
you can live w/ o alcohol. You can't w/o food/nutrition. There is a difference.
ritzgal
09-05-2007, 04:47 PM
you can live w/ o alcohol. You can't w/o food/nutrition. There is a difference.
You can't live without drinking, but you can live without drinking alcohol. You can't live without eating, but you can live without eating certain foods. I don't see a huge diff.
Blondell
09-05-2007, 04:51 PM
You can't live without drinking, but you can live without drinking alcohol. You can't live without eating, but you can live without eating certain foods. I don't see a huge diff.
you said...
I honestly don't understand how you can treat food differently than any other addictive substance.i simply gave you an answer as to why.
Yes, you can live w/o eating certain foods. But, you generalized food--as in all food. You didn't say 'certain foods'. ;)
Brandi
09-05-2007, 05:04 PM
OK, I'm totally new here, so maybe I'm out of line. I'm an actively recovering bulimic, and IMHO, the advice being given out here on how to deal with compulsive eating and bingeing is way, way, terribly off.
I suggest that anyone who really truly wants to be free of bingeing for the rest of their life buy the following book, "Breaking Free from Emotional Eating" formally published as "Breaking Free from Compulsive Eating" by Geneen Roth.
You may also wish to buy the following books by the same author, "When Food is Love", "Feeding the Hungry Heart", and "When You Eat at the Refrigerator Pull Up A Chair."
You don't have to live like this. And you don't have to give up or abstain from these foods either. In fact, denying yourself these foods and feeling ashamed about yourself are the exact things causing the behavior in the first place.
Great! I am going to look these up today.
I honestly don't understand how you can treat trigger foods differently than any other addictive substance. Alcoholics don't learn to reintroduce alcohol to their lives do they?
This is my thought as well. I'm not going to starve myself. No one needs candy, though.
Every single time I tell myself I can moderate candy...it turns into a huge mess.
This is my thought as well. I'm not going to starve myself. No one needs candy, though.
Every single time I tell myself I can moderate candy...it turns into a huge mess.
Compulsive eating is not an addiction per se, although I see how many people would want to classify it as such since so many of the symptoms are similar to addiction. Compulsive eating is an Eating Disorder (ED, just like bulimia and anorexia). In particular, you've been discussing what they call Binge Eating Disorder (BED). While never 'cured' of it - you may become actively recovered from it and develop a healthy relationship with food without abstaining from anything.
This is my thought as well. I'm not going to starve myself. No one needs candy, though.
Every single time I tell myself I can moderate candy...it turns into a huge mess.
Its just like a former smoker having just one cigarette...it almost always leads to smoking again.
I do have to make one point (as a former smoker) - most people look down on smokers so much and say "I can't believe you can do that to yourself. You should just quit" - especially health conscious people. Well, consider how hard it is to quit sugar and maybe have a litte more understanding! It was very hard for me, and its something I still struggle with, and sometimes I get so frustrated by how people respond. So I had to vent a litte.
Visionquester
09-05-2007, 05:37 PM
I was thinking that perhaps it is a personality type thing. I think I inherited anxiety biologically and therefore it manifests in OCD type behaviours. The lifting really helps "take the edge off" the anxiety.
When I was a kid, I used to do some strange rituals..... like "checking" and stuff. I honestly thought I was over that, but perhaps it morphed into something else???
And don't get me started on the disease of perfectionism. Google that one sometime. I think it's all the same problem.
http://www.coping.org/growth/perfect.htm#negative
Just rambling here.......pay no attention.
Oh yeah, and one more thing before I go....I was thinking that the food is not the addictive substance, maybe its the brain chemicals or whatever that are released when you have certain foods. Maybe they were foods that you associate with comfort or something like when you were a kid. It flushes over you and gives you that feel good sensation. Maybe that's why some foods are triggers and others are not? I have figured out that my binges have been tied to some sort of anxious feeling that I find too overwhelming to deal with at the time. Precontest is really, really stressful in my opinion and thus the need for extra comfort? Or comfort brain chemicals?
~C.
I honestly don't understand how you can treat food differently than any other addictive substance. Alcoholics don't learn to reintroduce alcohol to their lives do they?
That was my first thought as well.
I think people think food addictions aren't really 'addictions' that are on the level of alcohol or drugs ... when they are. Food acts like a drug in the body.
Of course, there are going to be multiple schools of thought as to how to approach recovery. And some methods will work better for some people and others for other people.
you can live w/ o alcohol. You can't w/o food/nutrition. There is a difference.
Not the same.
Alcohol represents the addictive trigger. Certain foods represent the addictive trigger. Otherwise any food would do it if it was just about food. Just like any liquid would do it for an alcoholic.
Bufalini
09-05-2007, 05:51 PM
I think people think food addictions aren't really 'addictions' that are on the level of alcohol or drugs ... when they are. Food acts like a drug in the body.
It would be a up there with drugs and alcohol, if you got arrested for it.
Compulsive eating is not an addiction per se, although I see how many people would want to classify it as such since so many of the symptoms are similar to addiction. Compulsive eating is an Eating Disorder (ED, just like bulimia and anorexia). In particular, you've been discussing what they call Binge Eating Disorder (BED). While never 'cured' of it - you may become actively recovered from it and develop a healthy relationship with food without abstaining from anything.
Compulsive eating is a component of food addiction though. Just like compulsiveness is a component of any addiction. It's but one component. (the compulsive pursuit of a mood change by engaging repeatedly in binge eating despite adverse consequences).
The comments that have been made in this thread by various people show that the issues being struggled with are not just compulsive eating. (obsession, compulsion, tolerance, withdrawal, craving, distorted body image, rapid eating, compensatory behaviours.)
These diagnostic criteria for food addiction and bulimia nervosa are similar according to the DSM-III-R. It says the essential features are recurrent episodes of binge eating ('rapid consumption of a large amount of food in a discrete period of time'.)
Complicated subject obviously. But good for discussion.
It would be a up there with drugs and alcohol, if you got arrested for it.
How do you figure? What does legality have to do with it, or with the impact on a person's emotional well being? :scratch:
ETA - you don't get arrested just for being an alcoholic. Do you? :confused:
A thought on using the label as an excuse. What alcoholic do you know that uses the label of alcholic for an excuse to drink? Usually when someone is able to call themselves an alcoholic, that is the beginning of them NOT drinking. (or drug addict)
And I'm not sure what the 'answer' is to this. Just talking/thinking out loud.
Bufalini
09-05-2007, 06:10 PM
How do you figure? What does legality have to do with it, or with the impact on a person's emotional well being? :scratch:
I am in agreement, I think it doesn't come across as an addiction to many people because it is not in the media as much.
ritzgal
09-05-2007, 06:11 PM
How do you figure? What does legality have to do with it, or with the impact on a person's emotional well being? :scratch:
ETA - you don't get arrested just for being an alcoholic. Do you? :confused:
I think she means that it might get the same recognition if you could get arrested for binging and driving and killing someone for passing out at the wheel?
:shrug:
ritzgal
09-05-2007, 06:12 PM
A thought on using the label as an excuse. What alcoholic do you know that uses the label of alcholic for an excuse to drink? Usually when someone is able to call themselves an alcoholic, that is the beginning of them NOT drinking. (or drug addict)
And I'm not sure what the 'answer' is to this. Just talking/thinking out loud.
I agree.
I think she means that it might get the same recognition if you could get arrested for binging and driving and killing someone for passing out at the wheel?
:shrug:
:oops:
I get it now.
strongchick
09-05-2007, 06:14 PM
These diagnostic criteria for food addiction and bulimia nervosa are similar according to the DSM-III-R. It says the essential features are recurrent episodes of binge eating ('rapid consumption of a large amount of food in a discrete period of time'.)
Complicated subject obviously. But good for discussion.
Is food addiction IN the DSMIII-R? The newest version is actually the DSM-IV (and the V should be coming out in a year or so). I don't remember seeing food addiction in the IVth edition. However, binge eating disorder IS listed in the back of the DSM-IV as an area of future study. AND, ED-not otherwise specified would qualify for an ED that doesn't quite meet the criteria of the other EDs.
jackieleigh
09-05-2007, 06:19 PM
food addiction isnt in the DSM, in any version old or new.
Is food addiction IN the DSMIII-R?
No. It's Bulimia Nervosa - with similar diagnostic criteria. I guess what the point is that what people are referring to as Food Addiction these days, (based on the criteria to identify it) is the same as what the DSM calls Bulimia Nervosa.
Not sure if I'm even explaining that right. :lol:
fitmonkey
09-05-2007, 06:24 PM
THis is all very interesting food for thought...
I was thinking that perhaps it is a personality type thing. I think I inherited anxiety biologically and therefore it manifests in OCD type behaviours. The lifting really helps "take the edge off" the anxiety.
When I was a kid, I used to do some strange rituals..... like "checking" and stuff. I honestly thought I was over that, but perhaps it morphed into something else???
And don't get me started on the disease of perfectionism. Google that one sometime. I think it's all the same problem.
http://www.coping.org/growth/perfect.htm#negative
Just rambling here.......pay no attention.
Oh yeah, and one more thing before I go....I was thinking that the food is not the addictive substance, maybe its the brain chemicals or whatever that are released when you have certain foods. Maybe they were foods that you associate with comfort or something like when you were a kid. It flushes over you and gives you that feel good sensation. Maybe that's why some foods are triggers and others are not? I have figured out that my binges have been tied to some sort of anxious feeling that I find too overwhelming to deal with at the time. Precontest is really, really stressful in my opinion and thus the need for extra comfort? Or comfort brain chemicals?
~C.
I definitely have that all or nothing personality. It's like I don't have 1st-4th gears. I have reverse and overdrive!!
I don't think I have OCD behaviours, though...a little bit of perfectionism, maybe.
ritzgal
09-05-2007, 06:27 PM
Something else I just thought about the idea of why so many people might be food addicted now as opposed to past generations is that *I think* we are in a time now where, in our country, food is so available. It's relatively cheap, especially for processed garbage which tends to be the triggers. There just simply night not have been as much available so easily in the past. Of course I'm speculating as I have no concrete data about this.
This is why the working poor in our country have some of the worst diets, almost everything that's affordable to them is junk.
Visionquester
09-05-2007, 06:28 PM
Listen, my son has been diagnosed with High Functioning Autism, Pervasive Developmental Disorder Not Otherwise Specified, Aspergers syndrome.
My point is: These labels don't mean damnit. Labels are for OTHER people to try to understand a group of similar behaviours and symptoms associated with the disorder.
What matters is: Adressing the symptoms and the cause of the symptoms in an attempt to ameliorate the problems it causes in the individual's life.
So..... I believe we should focus on doing that.
~C.
Listen, my son has been diagnosed with High Functioning Autism, Pervasive Developmental Disorder Not Otherwise Specified, Aspergers syndrome.
My point is: These labels don't mean damnit. Labels are for OTHER people to try to understand a group of similar behaviours and symptoms associated with the disorder.
What matters is: Adressing the symptoms and the cause of the symptoms in an attempt to ameliorate the problems it causes in the individual's life.
So..... I believe we should focus on doing that.
~C.
Indeed.
I think my point in drawing the comparison to a 'labeled' disorder is that it's a real issue and not just some made up issue for which the uninformed think amounts to a lack of discipline or self control.
jackieleigh
09-05-2007, 06:35 PM
Something else I just thought about the idea of why so many people might be food addicted now as opposed to past generations is that *I think* we are in a time now where, in our country, food is so available. It's relatively cheap, especially for processed garbage which tends to be the triggers. There just simply night not have been as much available so easily in the past. Of course I'm speculating as I have no concrete data about this.
This is why the working poor in our country have some of the worst diets, almost everything that's affordable to them is junk.
I this food problems have been arond forever but the difference between then and now is that people are more willing to speak out about their problems, that people are beginning to see that they are not alone in this, and that when they DO speak out they are able to better understand why they suffer so much. It doesnt have to do with food as much as people think
jackieleigh
09-05-2007, 06:37 PM
OK, I'm totally new here, so maybe I'm out of line. I'm an actively recovering bulimic, and IMHO, the advice being given out here on how to deal with compulsive eating and bingeing is way, way, terribly off.
I suggest that anyone who really truly wants to be free of bingeing for the rest of their life buy the following book, "Breaking Free from Emotional Eating" formally published as "Breaking Free from Compulsive Eating" by Geneen Roth.
You may also wish to buy the following books by the same author, "When Food is Love", "Feeding the Hungry Heart", and "When You Eat at the Refrigerator Pull Up A Chair."
You don't have to live like this. And you don't have to give up or abstain from these foods either. In fact, denying yourself these foods and feeling ashamed about yourself are the exact things causing the behavior in the first place.
Good post :) No one needs to feel like they do, and you CAN live a "normal" life, IF you are willing to accept help. Food shouldnt be good or bad. By labeling and restricting you are just keeping yourself a slave to food.
Another good book is Intuitive Eating by Evelyn Trouble. It isnt specifically for binge eaters, but for people who have been on diets for as long as they can remember. It discusses how to get back to "normal" eating, how to listen to your body and what it needs
I definately have the disease of perfectionism. Always striving to be perfect.. and when I am not- it paralyzes me..if someone points out something I have done wrong of incorrectly even if it is just in their eyes it can devastate me.. I just said to somebody this weekend. The pressure I put on myself to be perfect stops me from living life at times.. how and why?? Usually the food connection that comes into play when I feel as if I have not been "perfect" enough.. hope all that made sense..
I definately have the disease of perfectionism. Always striving to be perfect.. and when I am not- it paralyzes me..if someone points out something I have done wrong of incorrectly even if it is just in their eyes it can devastate me.. I just said to somebody this weekend. The pressure I put on myself to be perfect stops me from living life at times.. how and why?? Usually the food connection that comes into play when I feel as if I have not been "perfect" enough.. hope all that made sense..
Perfectionism can certainly be paralyzing. You can't get everything right, so you consider yourself a failure. Being average is failing. You may eat better than 95% of the population, but because you don't eat as good as you think you should, you're a failure. I think most of us, those who are dedicated and driven in life, struggle with this. That same drive that leads you to greatness can also lead you to self-disgust and depression. I certainly have been trying to come to terms with this post-competition.
Meadows
09-05-2007, 07:34 PM
Usually when someone is able to call themselves an alcoholic, that is the beginning of them NOT drinking. (or drug addict)
And I'm not sure what the 'answer' is to this. Just talking/thinking out loud.
hhhm, I don't know about this. Most of the addicts I know, knew they were addicted, they just did not want to stop. They would not verbalize it to others b/c of fear of being made to stop or having the thing they were addicted to taken away. And alot of addicts will go back to using even after they have verbalized the addiction.
Do you mean people using it as an excuse for being overwieght? ie "I'm over weight b/c I have a food addition"
I think I get what fitmonkey was meaning. I wouldn't dispute that food addiction is a real problem. But I would bet lots of people would self diagnose themselves, when its not truly an addiction for them. I see it the same as thyroid issues, some people really have them others self diagnose to have something to blame for their weight.
I do find it hard to believe that food addiction is on the same level as drug addiction. It may just be because I cannot imagine the detox/recovery for a food addict being anything like what it is for a drug addict.
hhhm, I don't know about this. Most of the addicts I know, knew they were addicted, they just did not want to stop. They would not verbalize it to others b/c of fear of being made to stop or having the thing they were addicted to taken away. And alot of addicts will go back to using even after they have verbalized the addiction.
Do you mean people using it as an excuse for being overwieght? ie "I'm over weight b/c I have a food addition"
I think I get what fitmonkey was meaning. I wouldn't dispute that food addiction is a real problem. But I would bet lots of people would self diagnose themselves, when its not truly an addiction for them. I see it the same as thyroid issues, some people really have them others self diagnose to have something to blame for their weight.
I do find it hard to believe that food addiction is on the same level as drug addiction. It may just be because I cannot imagine the detox/recovery for a food addict being anything like what it is for a drug addict.
Yes, I mean I don't think people will use it as an excuse. I wouldn't. I have a hard time talking about it in the first place. I guess I'm airing it here, but it's not something I really like to talk about...
And right, I don't think just realizing you have a problem is going to cure you. I just mean that you can look at it in a different way. Try to rocognize it and then deal with it.
I don't think it's on the same level as a drug addiction or alcohol, either. I am not even sure I'm addicted.
I know there is a detox period for me, though. Not to where I'm puking and getting the shakes from it, but something is definitely going on there... :shrug:
Meadows
09-05-2007, 07:48 PM
got'cha, :wink:
And I didn't mean you specifically. :)
jackieleigh
09-05-2007, 09:32 PM
There definitely is a detox period
Meadows
09-05-2007, 09:36 PM
oh, I am sure that there is, but I doubt its quite the same as detoxing from herione or oxy. I doubt people shit themselves b/c they can't have chocolate.
I doubt people shit themselves b/c they can't have chocolate.
:lol: Not funny, but that sentence made me laugh. Therefore I guess it was funny.
oh, I am sure that there is, but I doubt its quite the same as detoxing from herione or oxy. I doubt people shit themselves b/c they can't have chocolate.
Ok sorry that was funny :lol3:
Meadows
09-05-2007, 09:43 PM
Don't feel bad
I might have *chuckled* when I typed it
jackieleigh
09-05-2007, 09:44 PM
:lol: Not funny, but that sentence made me laugh. Therefore I guess it was funny.
yeah, it was totally funny :funny:
Meadows
09-05-2007, 09:49 PM
all this laughter and yet, I see no green! :dry:
:flirty:
SusanF
09-05-2007, 10:33 PM
oh, I am sure that there is, but I doubt its quite the same as detoxing from herione or oxy. I doubt people shit themselves b/c they can't have chocolate.
Okay, I'm still laughing!:laugh: :laugh:
Patricia
09-05-2007, 10:53 PM
all this laughter and yet, I see no green! :dry:
:flirty:
I repped u before reading this. :thumb:
Ever felt that? Start a new diet and you feel a bit dizzy and weak for a bit? But a little sugar makes you feel better?
I definitely felt nauseous for most of my first week on the program. Didn't try a sugar fix though. :lol3:
Noel Clark
09-06-2007, 01:44 AM
In the DSMIV under Criterion A2 it talks about an episode of binge eating can also be accompanied by a sense of lack of control. An individual may be in a frenzied state while binge eating, especially early in the course of the disorder. Some individuals describe a dissociative quality during, or following, the binge episodes. I have actually heard a lot of the girls on here talk about that sense of dissociation.
diddledee
09-06-2007, 01:48 AM
In the DSMIV under Criterion A2 it talks about an episode of binge eating can also be accompanied by a sense of lack of control. An individual may be in a frenzied state while binge eating, especially early in the course of the disorder. Some individuals describe a dissociative quality during, or following, the binge episodes. I have actually heard a lot of the girls on here talk about that sense of dissociation.
I have a friend who can sit down and eat tons of the weirdest stuff, and I swear it is like she is in a trance. One thing I remember well is one summer she got a bushel basket of tomatoes. Sat down with a salt shaker and ate every bite. I've seen her do it with other things, but that is the one that sticks out in my mind.
strongchick
09-06-2007, 01:56 AM
In the DSMIV under Criterion A2 it talks about an episode of binge eating can also be accompanied by a sense of lack of control. An individual may be in a frenzied state while binge eating, especially early in the course of the disorder. Some individuals describe a dissociative quality during, or following, the binge episodes. I have actually heard a lot of the girls on here talk about that sense of dissociation.
I know many who feel that way. That is a true binge...its like you are watching someone else do it. I know people who have woken up surrounded by food wrappers, empty cake boxes, etc. with no recollection.
It is very different from what people generally think of as binging. Its more than just a few extra cookies or three pieces of cake.
Not to mention that a true ED actually has very little to do with food or weight.
What you need to understand though, is bingeing, and EDs in general, are NOT about food. The disfunction with food is just a symptom of a much deeper problem.
And there is a fine line between a psychological disorder like Bulimia Nervosa, and having a natural physiological reaction to becoming competition lean. As a woman, your body does not want to hang out at 12% body fat - and it will react in such a way as to try and correct that. Couple that with depriving yourself of food that you like, or even love, for extended periods of time and the environment is ripe for a binge - even though you may not naturally have issues with food.
On the one hand, those of us with serious problems with food - people who actually have Bulimia Nervosa - need to be treated accordingly. And that does not include denying yourself "trigger" foods. If you have used laxatives after a binge, exercised excessively post binge, or induced vomiting, you could very likely be Bulimic and you need to get help from a professional who is trained in treating people with EDs. Recovering from an ED is not treated the same way as drug addiction or alcohol addiction, and I think that making this comparison is dangerous and misleading.
On the other hand, if you don't generally have issues with food, but start to after long periods of dieting or when you get very, very lean, but your eating returns to normal after a relatively short period of time AND you have no guilt associated with your post comp/diet bingeing - then you may not have an ED. The question becomes how to manage your post comp/diet period with a degree of sanity so that you can make a smooth transition to being off season/strict diet so that you can avoid the rebound.
jackieleigh
09-06-2007, 02:25 AM
PERFECT post BBB
Doesn't that assume there is one way to treat the problem? That's never the case with any problem ... or is it?
There are eating disorder specialists who take a completely different approach to recovery.
Surely there has to be more than one way. At least that seems plausible to me. :shrug:
Noel Clark
09-06-2007, 02:49 AM
Also the DSM only labels Bulimia and anorexia as psychological disorders. There are so many more being researched at this point. Another thing that wasn't mention was Etiology: Many individuals with Bulimia come from over controlling families where nurturance is lacking. Studies suggest that sexual abuse survivors are more prone to the disorder, as are fraternal twins and first degree relatives of those who have anorexia, the latter suggesting a biological component as well.
The American Psychiatric Assoc says that the care of these types of patients requires a comprehensive array of approaches to provide them with the best chance of treatment success.
Also the DSM only labels Bulimia and anorexia as psychological disorders. There are so many more being researched at this point. Another thing that wasn't mention was Etiology: Many individuals with Bulimia come from over controlling families where nurturance is lacking. Studies suggest that sexual abuse survivors are more prone to the disorder, as are fraternal twins and first degree relatives of those who have anorexia, the latter suggesting a biological component as well.
The American Psychiatric Assoc says that the care of these types of patients requires a comprehensive array of approaches to provide them with the best chance of treatment success.
Which supports the idea that there's more than one way to treat the condition?
Noel Clark
09-06-2007, 02:55 AM
Which supports the idea that there's more than one way to treat the condition?Acutally what is most supported is a multidisciplinary approach...bringing in Physicians, Dietician and a mental health professional.
Research on the treatment of eating disorders is exploring how different treatments can be helpful for different types of eating disorders. The American Psychiatric Association has published a set of practice guidelines for the treatment of patients with eating disorders (American Psychiatric Association, Practice Guidelines for Eating Disorders, American Journal of Psychiatry, 2000).
There is general agreement that good treatment often requires a spectrum of treatment options. These options can range from basic educational interventions designed to teach nutritional and symptom management techniques to long-term residential treatment (living away from home in treatment centers).
so um yes :lol:
Noel Clark
09-06-2007, 02:56 AM
On the one hand, those of us with serious problems with food - people who actually have Bulimia Nervosa - need to be treated accordingly. And that does not include denying yourself "trigger" foods. If you have used laxatives after a binge, exercised excessively post binge, or induced vomiting, you could very likely be Bulimic and you need to get help from a professional who is trained in treating people with EDs. Recovering from an ED is not treated the same way as drug addiction or alcohol addiction, and I think that making this comparison is dangerous and misleading.
.
I do think this is very very very important.
I do think this is very very very important.
Agreed. That's part of the diagnostic criteria in the DSM isn't it? Purging, fasting, and exercise issues?
Couldn't that fall under the category of 'compensatory behaviours'?
Noel Clark
09-06-2007, 03:13 AM
Agreed. That's part of the diagnostic criteria in the DSM isn't it? Purging, fasting, and exercise issues?
Couldn't that fall under the category of 'compensatory behaviours'?
Part of the Criterion for Bulimia is that exactly --compensatory behavior--whether it is vomitting, restrictive dieting following the binge or prior to the binge, as well as excessive exercise, diuretics or laxatives.
strongchick
09-06-2007, 03:33 AM
Which supports the idea that there's more than one way to treat the condition?
There is. And as said, generally you need a treatment TEAM of a physician, dietician, psychiatrist and psychologist.
EDs have the worst prognosis of any of the DSM psychological disorders. They are very very difficult to recover from 100%. Average recovery time is approximately 7 years. I don't know the stats for bulimia, but for AN the general recovery rate is around 10%. 10% die and the rest live in a gray area of not fully recovered.
If you do a personality analyses of people with EDs, certain personality characteristics generally fall out. People with AN are different than those with BN than those with COE. And yes, there are also generally family issues.
BUT, there are exceptions to every rule, which makes treatment even more difficult.
Not to mention the increase in rate of EDs in women in their 30s, which is a recent occurance. Previous treatment techniques focused on adolescents, and with the newer women in their 30-40s now becoming AN and BN it creates a need for new treatment approaches and theories. What make a woman AN or BN in her 30s is different from something that would trigger a teenager...
Noel Clark
09-06-2007, 03:44 AM
Is food addiction IN the DSMIII-R? The newest version is actually the DSM-IV (and the V should be coming out in a year or so). I don't remember seeing food addiction in the IVth edition. However, binge eating disorder IS listed in the back of the DSM-IV as an area of future study. AND, ED-not otherwise specified would qualify for an ED that doesn't quite meet the criteria of the other EDs.
The newest is the revised edition of the DSM-IV-TR(2000) and the DSM V isn't expected to come out til at least 2011. But they do have a prelude project website if you wanna check that out. http://www.dsm5.org/
Visionquester
09-06-2007, 03:54 AM
Go into Wal-mart and look around. Find me someone normal and healthy. Most people are overweight or obese. They can be found cruising around the store using the Omegas. If they are slim, they are either elderly or smoke cigarettes or something else. There are a few athletes, such as tennis players and runners, but again you have to wonder WHY they decided to become athletes. Was it for pure enjoyment of the sport or to keep their weight down, because they have been food obsessed ever since hitting puberty when their bodies started to change and they tried to "control" it?
~C.
Patricia
09-06-2007, 03:56 AM
What you need to understand though, is bingeing, and EDs in general, are NOT about food. The disfunction with food is just a symptom of a much deeper problem.
And there is a fine line between a psychological disorder like Bulimia Nervosa, and having a natural physiological reaction to becoming competition lean. As a woman, your body does not want to hang out at 12% body fat - and it will react in such a way as to try and correct that. Couple that with depriving yourself of food that you like, or even love, for extended periods of time and the environment is ripe for a binge - even though you may not naturally have issues with food.
On the one hand, those of us with serious problems with food - people who actually have Bulimia Nervosa - need to be treated accordingly. And that does not include denying yourself "trigger" foods. If you have used laxatives after a binge, exercised excessively post binge, or induced vomiting, you could very likely be Bulimic and you need to get help from a professional who is trained in treating people with EDs. Recovering from an ED is not treated the same way as drug addiction or alcohol addiction, and I think that making this comparison is dangerous and misleading.
On the other hand, if you don't generally have issues with food, but start to after long periods of dieting or when you get very, very lean, but your eating returns to normal after a relatively short period of time AND you have no guilt associated with your post comp/diet bingeing - then you may not have an ED. The question becomes how to manage your post comp/diet period with a degree of sanity so that you can make a smooth transition to being off season/strict diet so that you can avoid the rebound.
:wavesad:
I realize all this is classified under the heading of Psychological Disorders, but I don't think that's really the most accurate classification.
I think it can be physiological, like other addictions OR psychological. Or maybe a combination of both. Think about neurotransmitters. That's physiology. Not psychology.
Dr. Talbot of the International Association of Eating Disorders Specialists mentions it being a biogenetic disease.
He goes on to say that the answer lies within the brain itself. That addiction has a biological basis related to the way the brain uses its neurotransmitters. These transmitters affect a change of balance within the brain which brings about an improved feeling.
As soon as you start heading down that road, it can't be just a psychological issue. It seems like in some cases it can be a real, physiological issue. Like other addictions are.
Noel and I were just discussing this, and she says though that there are many people that go through therapy and can return to eating 'those' foods with no troubles. Others, can't.
So it'd seem there needs to be more than one diagnosis and more than one treatment approach depending on the individual.
The area of the brain associated with addiction would be the hypothalamus. It's been at least theorized that there in addiction there is an abnormality of the endorphin-enkaphalin metabolism (physiological). Whatever *substance* or behaviour that changes the neurostransmitters - thus producing some kind of abnormal metabolism of the neurotransmitter system - results in addiction.
What if the body's natural levels of endorphins and enkephalins is abnormally low for some reason? When they're low, the person is more susceptible to substances, even certain foods. Result is a drug like response in the brain chemistry that results in feeling better.
Physiological support?
Insulin release which clears the amino acids from the blood - except for tryptophan which can then make its way to the brain to make more serotonin. Physiological 'feel good' chemical.
Here's a quote from this paper... Psychiatric Aspects of the Relationship between Eating and Mood ... 'behavioural and clinical studies in animals and humans suggest that altered function of the neurotransmitter serotonin may be of major significance in mediating the prominent clinical symptoms in bulimia.' And, 'the appetite, affective, and impulsive features of bulimia have all been associated with possible alterations in serotonin transmission.'
It doesn't sound like it's completely psychological in all cases to me.
I bet they change that classification in years to come. Or at least from my limited understanding, (admittedly), they should at least investigate.
Go into Wal-mart and look around. Find me someone normal and healthy. Most people are overweight or obese. They can be found cruising around the store using the Omegas. If they are slim, they are either elderly or smoke cigarettes or something else. There are a few athletes, such as tennis players and runners, but again you have to wonder WHY they decided to become athletes. Was it for pure enjoyment of the sport or to keep their weight down, because they have been food obsessed ever since hitting puberty when their bodies started to change and they tried to "control" it?
~C.
:scratch:
Not everyone has an eating disorder. People are overweight for any number of reasons. Lazy slugs being one of them.
The newest is the revised edition of the DSM-IV-TR(2000) and the DSM V isn't expected to come out til at least 2011. But they do have a prelude project website if you wanna check that out. http://www.dsm5.org/
And here I thought my Edition (DSM-IV) was old and out of date :blink: wow they need to update it sooner...there are all kinds of things in there that have now new research etc. I will have to check that link :thumb:
Noel Clark
09-06-2007, 04:23 AM
Ok so I thought this was interesting as well:
Overall, it is important to understand that bulimia nervosa, which appears in the beginning to be related to dieting and weight control, eventually becomes a means of mood regulation in general. A bulimic finds solace in food and often in the purging itself. The act of purging becomes powerfully addictive, not just because it controls weight, but because it is calming, or serves as a way of expressing anger, or in some other way helps the individual cope, albeit destructively.
In fact, bulimics seem to be individuals who need help regulating or modulating mood states and therefore are more prone to use a variety of coping mechanisms such as drugs, alcohol, and even sex.
Brandi
09-06-2007, 04:36 AM
Ok so I thought this was interesting as well:
Overall, it is important to understand that bulimia nervosa, which appears in the beginning to be related to dieting and weight control, eventually becomes a means of mood regulation in general. A bulimic finds solace in food and often in the purging itself. The act of purging becomes powerfully addictive, not just because it controls weight, but because it is calming, or serves as a way of expressing anger, or in some other way helps the individual cope, albeit destructively.
In fact, bulimics seem to be individuals who need help regulating or modulating mood states and therefore are more prone to use a variety of coping mechanisms such as drugs, alcohol, and even sex.
Yeah, that's all true, without getting into any gross details, you feel like 100lbs come off your back.
As for the other coping mechanisms, having battled with drugs and alcohol, I think in my own life, there is a definite connection.
Is it possible that 75% of people are addicted to food then?
This seems to be more of a problem in the US than some other cultures. We spent time in Helsinki a few yrs ago and it was striking how few ppl were overweight. In a full week I didn't see more than a handful and they were almost all young people (20's & under).
It seems to me that MOST people have at least one trigger or comfort food that will cause them to binge.
I think there are a lot of people that just don't binge.
I do not know enough about this "food" addiction, although I do believe most humans are addicted to something.
LOL. I was wondering about the same thing with respect to work, and specifically writing. For a lot of ppl for whom the term "workaholic" really does seem to fit. And in particular when writing a paper (and I would presume a novel) many of the criteria seem to fit. Once you start the thing takes on a life of it's own and it's easy to become quite obsessed. But in this case these compulsive tendencies produce good things.
I like to think that i know a bit on how addiction works. I think too many people will find this as an excuse for what is also know as lack of discipline. Oh, I have a disorder. I have "food addiction syndrome." Why have all these knew disorders only come about in the last hundred years?
I disagree. There is a lot of evidence that ppl find it very hard to change eating habits. A huge proportion (80-90%) who drop lbs in weight loss studies gain them back. Maybe we need a new way of thinking about this? If it was so easy to "develop" that discipline, weight re-gain may not be so much of a problem. Perhaps thinking of this as an "addiction", and using that as a model to guide the development of coping skills, is a better approach?
I doubt many INdians binged and purged buffalo and berries. I do believe it can be/is a feal problem, but probably too many people will be diagnosed with it.
Curious isn't this? Then again, the Indians probably didn't have a lot of excess food. But what's the basis for these cultural differences ...? This certainly seems to be a curious, complex problem.
I know there is a detox period for me, though. Not to where I'm puking and getting the shakes from it, but something is definitely going on there... :shrug:
I have the same feeling. If I've been free-running with food for awhile (something I've been doing quite a bit this summer while travelling) I find it SO difficult to get back on track. Particularly when my plan is low carb. The first 3 days or so it's just really hard. After a couple days I'll find that nothing is satisfying - 5 min after a meal of chicken and veggies I'll be craving somthing that tastes "good". For me that's something grainy, preferably with nuts and seeds. I can totally lose it with desserts/sugar ... but they make me feel so obviousy crappy afterward that they're easier to avoid. If I start fantasizing about a chocolate ice cream cone ... I'll try to focus on remembering how I'll feel afterward, and that usually helps. But the point is that it usually takes me a full week to really get back on a roll with my plan after time off. I'm not sure if all these symptoms would qualify as "withdrawal" ...? But they certainly are predictable.
I think it can be physiological, like other addictions OR psychological. Or maybe a combination of both. Think about neurotransmitters. That's physiology. Not psychology.
I don't think that "psychology" is separate from "physiology". All psychology comes from the brain.
Blondell
09-06-2007, 01:08 PM
Yeah, that's all true, without getting into any gross details, you feel like 100lbs come off your back.
As for the other coping mechanisms, having battled with drugs and alcohol, I think in my own life, there is a definite connection.
agreed. I've never connected the ED w/ my drug abused in the past. Makes great sense.
jackieleigh
09-06-2007, 01:11 PM
You all have to realize that there is a HUGE issue between having and eating disorder and simply having problems with food.
If you are comp lean, I would bet that most of you would return to "normal" when you reached a healthy weight and stopped restricting. It may take time though.
Please do not label yourself as having an ED. If you honestly do, or think you do, go get help NOW
Blondell
09-06-2007, 01:14 PM
I've battled w/ it in the past and could easily get back to it if let myself, but I've worked to hard to add mass to lose it all again. That's a major thing that keeps me eating.
Nah, I don't really think I have an ED after reading all of this. I do have issues with food, though. And I don't want to be a normal weight or leanness. :ninja: I guess that's part of my problem.
I think there are a lot of people that just don't binge.
I really don't binge. I'll break my diet - cheat - and sometimes more than I want to, but I really never eat to the point of uncomfortable. And I generally don't eat as much as I would have wanted to. I'll get angry at myself for my behavior, but I never feel out of control. I personally look at my habits/actions as my own personal weakness. I think the only time I was close to losing control was during my contest prep, because I was so starved. But even at Thanksgiving, when I'm not dieting, I can't eat that much. If it starts to make me uncomfortable, I stop.
Basically, I agree. I'm one of those people who doesn't really binge.
Cindy Day
09-06-2007, 03:20 PM
You all have to realize that there is a HUGE issue between having and eating disorder and simply having problems with food.
If you are comp lean, I would bet that most of you would return to "normal" when you reached a healthy weight and stopped restricting. It may take time though.
Please do not label yourself as having an ED. If you honestly do, or think you do, go get help NOW
Thank you & GREEN!!!
Cindy Day
09-06-2007, 03:20 PM
Nah, I don't really think I have an ED after reading all of this. I do have issues with food, though. And I don't want to be a normal weight or leanness. :ninja: I guess that's part of my problem.
:ditto:
tallblonde
09-06-2007, 03:32 PM
Nah, I don't really think I have an ED after reading all of this. I do have issues with food, though. And I don't want to be a normal weight or leanness. :ninja: I guess that's part of my problem.
:ditto: :ditto:
Thank you & GREEN!!!
So, are you getting help?
TheDeliverator
09-06-2007, 03:55 PM
I am addicted to food -I just can't live without it!
I am on a roll today.
Cindy Day
09-06-2007, 04:35 PM
So, are you getting help?
No. I don't have a ED. I was thanking her from distinguishing between those with EDs and those just having food issues temporarily due to dieting (extended diets, extreme diets, contest diets, etc).
I am not AN or BN. I don't even have Exercise bulimia (try to compensate overeating w/ extra exercise).
No. I don't have a ED. I was thanking her from distinguishing between those with EDs and those just having food issues temporarily due to dieting (extended diets, extreme diets, contest diets, etc).
I am not AN or BN. I don't even have Exercise bulimia (try to compensate overeating w/ extra exercise).
:unsure:
I know. :) Just teasing. :sadface:
This discussion became a lot more opaque when the term "eating disorder" was introduced. (I still don't know what that means other than being different from "food addiction" and "food issues", and if you've been diagnosed you'd better "get help"). The original topic was "food addiction", and Erik provided a definition. That was an interesting discussion. Thanks!
Well, it changed for me when people started talking about going into a trance and not knowing what you were doing. I have never been like that. I've eaten too much, continued beyond what the normal stopping point would be, and even when I knew I would regret it the next day.
But I've never had that trance like thing going on. And the exercising afterwards...not so much to get rid of what I just ate...there is a loose association there. It's not like I go eat, and then exercise like crazy every time.
Well, it changed for me when people started talking about going into a trance and not knowing what you were doing. I have never been like that. I've eaten too much, continued beyond what the normal stopping point would be, and even when I knew I would regret it the next day.
But I've never had that trance like thing going on. And the exercising afterwards...not so much to get rid of what I just ate...there is a loose association there. It's not like I go eat, and then exercise like crazy every time.
I don't think any 'trance-like' behaviour is even part of the diagnostic criteria anyway.
Cindy Day
09-06-2007, 05:18 PM
:unsure:
I know. :) Just teasing. :sadface:
:dope:
I didn't catch that obviously. :whistling:
:dope:
I didn't catch that obviously. :whistling:
You don't know me better than that? :eh:
Noel Clark
09-06-2007, 05:37 PM
You all have to realize that there is a HUGE issue between having and eating disorder and simply having problems with food.
If you are comp lean, I would bet that most of you would return to "normal" when you reached a healthy weight and stopped restricting. It may take time though.
Please do not label yourself as having an ED. If you honestly do, or think you do, go get help NOW
I don't think that anyone thinks there isn't, but eating disorders aren't rare. Now I may be reading this post wrong but a lot of the posters in this thread aren't even competitors. I think one of the things that needs to be remembered here is that if reading through this and seeing some of the symptoms of BN or AN or even food addiction -and you relate to them or find yourself saying...hey that is me-then you need to go a seek some professional help. seeing others post about their food issues makes this not so shameful...maybe even more likely to talk to someone about what they are going through. These are all positives. I would rather someone read through this and say-crap i think that is me and ask for help and end up not having the Diagnostic criterion for BN or AN and still finding a way to work through their problems with food then to not address these issues at all. I hope that made sense.
Brandi
09-06-2007, 06:35 PM
Nice post, Noel. :)
jackieleigh
09-06-2007, 07:29 PM
I don't think that anyone thinks there isn't, but eating disorders aren't rare. Now I may be reading this post wrong but a lot of the posters in this thread aren't even competitors. I think one of the things that needs to be remembered here is that if reading through this and seeing some of the symptoms of BN or AN or even food addiction -and you relate to them or find yourself saying...hey that is me-then you need to go a seek some professional help. seeing others post about their food issues makes this not so shameful...maybe even more likely to talk to someone about what they are going through. These are all positives. I would rather someone read through this and say-crap i think that is me and ask for help and end up not having the Diagnostic criterion for BN or AN and still finding a way to work through their problems with food then to not address these issues at all. I hope that made sense.
I agree 100%. Maybe what I wrote didnt come out right. I think this is a great topic, and wish more people become aware that they dont have to be slaves to food, that they can be at a healthy weight and eat well.
Anyone who thinks they have a problem should go see help, but I bet not many do
jackieleigh
09-06-2007, 07:36 PM
Thank you & GREEN!!!
:girly:
jlb001
09-06-2007, 08:20 PM
<~~~addiction is yellow cake batter or cake once baked with 2 or 3in of choc frosting.
Oh screw it...anything baked is my addiction.
Ok, so there was a post that said food addiction is not about the food at all, and that comparing an addiction to any food to other addictions like alcohol or drugs, is wrong and dangerous (or something like that). That it's not physiological per se. That the idea of abstaining is bad.
There's lots of new research coming out in this area and even people on this thread have reported experiences that support some of the things said early on in the thread. They do better when they abstain. Have a little of that 'food' (whatever is is)? All hell breaks loose. For SOME people that is the best course of action.
It's a popularly held belief that food addiction is an emotional problem, which while probably partly true, really doesn't make much sense to me. And, there's now research that actually supports the fact that it is a physiological or medical condition which adversely affects all areas of life, including emotional and mental stability. There's a physiological, biochemical condition of the body which creates a craving for refined carbohydrates. The craving and its biochemistry is the same as the alcoholic's craving for alcohol.
Research is calling this a biogenetic disease now. One that can be inherited, yes inherited. They have found a particilar gene that is linked to addiction. StrongChick, are you up on this at all?
Addictions specialists from the University of California at Los Angeles have focused their research on a dopamine receptor gene that is responsible for the sensations of pleasure or reward. A form of the pleasure gene is called A1, previously linked to alcohol and cocaine abuse, may be the cause of carbohydrate craving and compulsive eating is what the researchers are saying.
They did a study on 70 people who were obese, and the researchers found that twice as many of them as expected carried the rare, dopamine receptor pleasure gene A1. The 'normal' gene is called A2.
In previous studies they say that the brains of people carrying the rarer A1 gene had fewer dopamine receptors than those with the more common A2 gene.
What's that suggest? Thta people with fewer dopamine receptors may use substances to satisfy the deficit. Just as alcohol and cocaine increase the level of brain dopamine, so do carbs.
People eat carbs to 'feel good' by bringing the brain into a temporary balance. Such foods increase the level of brain chemicals. Addiction is a process of self medicating a distressed brain in chemical imbalance. People take prescribed drugs to medicate a distressed brain in chemical imbalance in depressive states.
When a person eats a trigger food (some kind of refined carbohydrate probably), the brain is flooded with dopamine, serotonin and norepinephrine (chemicals!). Flooded brain = feel good.
So therefore there ARE people with food issues for whom it IS the food itself, just like it is the alcohol itself that is a problem for alcoholics. All? Of course not. Some? Definitely. At least according to the research that is happening now. In cases like this, where there is a physiological link abstaining IS good. Look at how many people do awesome when they abstain and then fall off the cliff when they introduce some kind of trigger that they know is a trigger.
I would imagine the diagnostic updates in the future will reflect these findings. There are many sub classifications of eating issues and one size obviously doesn't fit all. Not in classification or in treatment.
strongchick
09-06-2007, 09:26 PM
Agreed.
For some yes, food is similar to other addictions. Which is also why you see many people with food addictions with OTHER addictions: drug, alcohol, sex, shopping, etc. When you stop one, the other pops up as a way to fulfill that biochemical and emotional need.
But how do you differentiate those for whom it is more physical and those for whom its emotional? And, for those that it is emotional...it ends up becoming physical...
You can also create a physiological dependence when there wasn't one before. How did that pathway of carbs increasing 5-HT start for an individual? What were they thinking/doing to create that dependence? Since you can create it, you can also make it disappear. A LOT of training, but it is possible.
I've worked in addiction research (rats high on cocaine are amusing) and most of it is physical..but a lot of it is environmental/social, and that's what makes recovery so difficult. When your environment causes that same pathway activation (cigarette after sex, seeing a bar in a restaurant) breaking that apart is extremely difficult. Which is where the meds and therapy come in.
Interesting discussion...
Agreed.
For some yes, food is similar to other addictions. Which is also why you see many people with food addictions with OTHER addictions: drug, alcohol, sex, shopping, etc. When you stop one, the other pops up as a way to fulfill that biochemical and emotional need.
I have other addictions. None other is chemical related, though (smoking, food, drugs). Also struggle with depression.
There ARE things that keep me on the level, though. One is exercise...another is being outside. Generally just keeping my mind off stuff.
Good stuff in here...
I have other addictions.
Addictions as defined by the definition of an addiction you mean? 'A compulsive pursuit of a mood change by engaging repeatedly in a process despite adverse consequences?'
Brandi
09-06-2007, 09:46 PM
Addictions specialists from the University of California at Los Angeles have focused their research on a dopamine receptor gene that is responsible for the sensations of pleasure or reward. A form of the pleasure gene is called A1, previously linked to alcohol and cocaine abuse, may be the cause of carbohydrate craving and compulsive eating is what the researchers are saying.
This is very interesting.
strongchick
09-06-2007, 10:10 PM
I have other addictions. None other is chemical related, though (smoking, food, drugs). Also struggle with depression.
There ARE things that keep me on the level, though. One is exercise...another is being outside. Generally just keeping my mind off stuff.
Both exercise and being outside increase endorphins and 5-HT. Self-medication. :)
Exercise is known to be a great treatment for depression.
jackieleigh
09-06-2007, 10:22 PM
Your post is interesting Erik.
I have a question and wonder if you have stumbled across this in any of your research
Have you found anyone who has abstained from their trigger food for long periods of time, gone back to it and been "cured" of the hold that food had on them?
Everyone I know with food issues who have removed their trigger have always gone back to it, and ended up binging on it. I'm not saying there arent people who have done it...just curious if you have come across anything of the sorts
Your post is interesting Erik.
I have a question and wonder if you have stumbled across this in any of your research
Have you found anyone who has abstained from their trigger food for long periods of time, gone back to it and been "cured" of the hold that food had on them?
Everyone I know with food issues who have removed their trigger have always gone back to it, and ended up binging on it. I'm not saying there arent people who have done it...just curious if you have come across anything of the sorts
I can't say off the top of my head ... but what you're saying is in line with my posts and thoughts. When that person with a food issue has eliminated and then eventually gone back to that trigger food ... they binged again.
That would lend support to the physiological/biochemical connection. That the actual trigger food is causing a chemical response in the body. Again.
Based on my research and study so far, the suggestion for these people (or for those who might have this physiological connection/predisposition/gene) is to NOT return to that food. Similar to another addict not returning to whatever their addiction was.
Interesting.
mich56
09-06-2007, 11:38 PM
Best.Thread.Ever.
:ninja:
Visionquester
09-06-2007, 11:39 PM
How do you cope or comfort yourself when you are anxious???
I think, (for me personally) finding appropriate alternative coping mechanisms to my anxiety will cure my BED.
Right now I am working on the first step which is monitoring my food. I write down the time, what I eat, and what I am feeling. I also write down any urges for food when I am not hungry and between meals. I then have to stop myself and think about what I was just thinking about to try to uncover what exactly it is that I find too overwhelming to deal with at the time. This awareness is enlightening. So far I have been focusing on taking deep breaths and calming myself down.
The only rules for food so far is that I eat 3 meals and 3 snacks or 6 small meals a day spaced approx. 3 hours apart. (sound familiar?) I can have anything I want at those times in normal portions.
The majority of the time I eat clean food, but in an attempt to specifically overcome this problem of not having moderation I have done the following:
I have successfully eaten a muffin and a bowl of cereal. These foods would have been "off limits" to me in the past and are considered trigger foods.
I personally am no longer willing to eliminate trigger foods from my life because my choices were getting WAY too narrow. Regular Old Fashioned Oats had become a trigger food in which I would start scarfing dry oats out of the container while my measured 1/3 cup was cooking. I "fixed" that problem by buying instant oatmeal in the premeasured packages.
When I stayed with my parents this summer in Michigan, they actually kept all of my trigger foods in the house. They had tons of icecream, Doritos, almonds, peanutbutter, and popcorn so I definitely had a harder time of abstaining. I would get within 2 pounds of contest weight, then blow it.
So anyway the book I have mentions that people that do the program don't really have a significant change in their weight because allowing foods that were once off limits in normal portions at specific times will make them break even by not bingeing.
They say you will still have the urge to binge, but you will make a list of alternative coping mechanisms to turn to when you do have the urge. It also says that you won't get it right at first and that it will take lots of practice of monitoring.
I am planning on having some pizza tomorrow or taco johns. Not as a cheat meal, (which I would have gotten stuffed), but as a regular meal in which I will eat a normal portion. (I'll look up how much pizza is a normal portion).
I figure I won't accumulate too much fat doing this because I am still lifting and doing cardio. I think it will even be conducive to building some decent muscle. So hopefully, come next spring I will be able to diet down for competition (if I find it still attracts me) without the bingeing b.s. and crazy amounts of cardio.
If anyone wants to follow along, I will be posting on my blog at http://www.visionquester2.blogspot.com
I keep it a real as possible.
~C.
Please don't misquote me, Thunder. I said that EDs are not about food. Not that food addiction isn't about food. Although, to tell you the truth - I don't think that food is addictive. I think these researchers are putting the cart before the horse. If you regularly binge on refined carbohydrates I have no doubt that there will be physiological changes that result. It may even change the way that your genes are expressed - which could very well explain their findings. And the chemical imbalance you speak of in addicts is often caused by the drug.
Let's take heroin as an example. Using heroin increases the number of dopamine receptors. So much so that eventually it takes a ton of dopamine to induce any pleasure at all - which is one of the reasons heroin addicts continue to use. They get no pleasure from anything else and they continue to use to try to correct this imbalance. An initial imbalance may be somewhat more prevalent in people who are susceptible to addiction, and yes, this may be inherited. But that isn't enough in and of itself to make someone an addict. It's a the combination of genetic factors AND an emotional trauma that makes someone an addict.
And I stand by the statement that it's both wrong and dangerous to compare an ED with alcoholism or drug addiction. You can quit drinking. You can't quit eating. You say, just remove the trigger food. So, then, I suppose these people should stop going to office parties, weddings, or any place were people congregate and eat refined carbs? You don't take an alcoholic to a bar or a crack addict to the the ghetto on a regular basis and expect them to stay clean, do you? Food is EVERYWHERE. You cannot get away from it. There will always be business lunches and donuts at the office.
As JackieLeigh said earlier - I've never known anyone who has successfully abstained from a trigger food. Go to an Overeaters Anonymous meeting and see how many people are walking around with 10 year chips or 20 year chips and then tell me how reasonable you think the advice of "abstain" is.
Angie1983
09-06-2007, 11:47 PM
its the definition of insanity
doing the same thing over and over again, with the hopes of a different outcome
?
Noel Clark
09-07-2007, 12:03 AM
Please don't misquote me, Thunder. I said that EDs are not about food. Not that food addiction isn't about food. Although, to tell you the truth - I don't think that food is addictive. I think these researchers are putting the cart before the horse. If you regularly binge on refined carbohydrates I have no doubt that there will be physiological changes that result. It may even change the way that your genes are expressed - which could very well explain their findings. And the chemical imbalance you speak of in addicts is often caused by the drug.
Let's take heroin as an example. Using heroin increases the number of dopamine receptors. So much so that eventually it takes a ton of dopamine to induce any pleasure at all - which is one of the reasons heroin addicts continue to use. They get no pleasure from anything else and they continue to use to try to correct this imbalance. An initial imbalance may be somewhat more prevalent in people who are susceptible to addiction, and yes, this may be inherited. But that isn't enough in and of itself to make someone an addict. It's a the combination of genetic factors AND an emotional trauma that makes someone an addict.
And I stand by the statement that it's both wrong and dangerous to compare an ED with alcoholism or drug addiction. You can quit drinking. You can't quit eating. You say, just remove the trigger food. So, then, I suppose these people should stop going to office parties, weddings, or any place were people congregate and eat refined carbs? You don't take an alcoholic to a bar or a crack addict to the the ghetto on a regular basis and expect them to stay clean, do you? Food is EVERYWHERE. You cannot get away from it. There will always be business lunches and donuts at the office.
As JackieLeigh said earlier - I've never known anyone who has successfully abstained from a trigger food. Go to an Overeaters Anonymous meeting and see how many people are walking around with 10 year chips or 20 year chips and then tell me how reasonable you think the advice of "abstain" is.
Erik isn't the one comparing them. This is the research that is being done now. And it is being studied by some of the most reliable and well known Eating disorder centers like here in Atlanta. They are finding data to back this information up. I still believe that there is a lot left to study and I do agree with you on the emotional trauma being a factor...but you can't deny the science behind what he is saying. I think there is so much more to learn about eating disorders...
strongchick
09-07-2007, 12:42 AM
Your post is interesting Erik.
I have a question and wonder if you have stumbled across this in any of your research
Have you found anyone who has abstained from their trigger food for long periods of time, gone back to it and been "cured" of the hold that food had on them?
Everyone I know with food issues who have removed their trigger have always gone back to it, and ended up binging on it. I'm not saying there arent people who have done it...just curious if you have come across anything of the sorts
No.
Often the trigger food is not just physiological but emotional. Until you work on that, it will continue to be a trigger food.
And the way to do that is generally through therapy and figuring out why it is a trigger. Desensitization and the like. Killing the neurological pathways that have made that trigger food a trigger.
You have two choices...you can avoid the trigger forever. Or, you can find a way to make it NOT a trigger anymore. Through therapy, drugs, etc.
Please don't misquote me, Thunder. I said that EDs are not about food. Not that food addiction isn't about food.
Thread title - Food Addiction. That's what I started the thread to discuss. :confused:
Although, to tell you the truth - I don't think that food is addictive. I think these researchers are putting the cart before the horse.
Research to the contrary? Or opinion?
If you regularly binge on refined carbohydrates I have no doubt that there will be physiological changes that result. It may even change the way that your genes are expressed - which could very well explain their findings.
Research to support? Or opinion?
And I stand by the statement that it's both wrong and dangerous to compare an ED with alcoholism or drug addiction.
Thread title - Food Addiction. It wasn't me that started talking about eating disorders. So since you made the distinction above between eating disorders and food addiction, can you find the quote where I compared ED to alcoholism and drug addiction. I don't remember directly saying that actually.
All I'm doing is commenting on what I'm learning in my own reading and research, ironically from eating disorder specialists and researchers. It's not like I'm making this up as Noel said. It's active research. It's published information.
Just because a person has/had an eating disorder doesn't make them the final word on all subclassifications of food issues. It does make them a person with their own experiences though.
Research is research.
There are eating disorder specialists, trained formally, and with experience 'in the field' who obviously subscribe to an opinion different than yours. Are they full of it? Completely wrong and ineffective? If they're working successfully in the industry, how can they be wrong? Maybe I'm misinterpreting your posts but you seem to assume there is but ONE way. And there simply isn't. How can all these researchers studying all this simply be wrong? There's enough new information coming out to prompt even more research.
Read any of Kay Sheppard's work. Try, From the First Bite: A Complete Guide to Recovery from Food Addiction. Or even Food Addiction: The Body Knows.
Addictions as defined by the definition of an addiction you mean? 'A compulsive pursuit of a mood change by engaging repeatedly in a process despite adverse consequences?'
:o I think I'm going to delete all my posts in here.
I can't say off the top of my head ... but what you're saying is in line with my posts and thoughts. When that person with a food issue has eliminated and then eventually gone back to that trigger food ... they binged again.
That would lend support to the physiological/biochemical connection. That the actual trigger food is causing a chemical response in the body. Again.
Based on my research and study so far, the suggestion for these people (or for those who might have this physiological connection/predisposition/gene) is to NOT return to that food. Similar to another addict not returning to whatever their addiction was.
Interesting.
Well, I was going to ask if you had come across a suggested period of time for abstinence would be to try to revisit that trigger food to see if the bingeing would still occur, but sounds like this answers that question... I just threw out the arbitrary number of 8 weeks in my little self-experiment I mentioned in my journal. But to never have ice cream or pasta again.....that would make me very sad :sadcry:
Well, I was going to ask if you had come across a suggested period of time for abstinence would be to try to revisit that trigger food to see if the bingeing would still occur, but sounds like this answers that question... I just threw out the arbitrary number of 8 weeks in my little self-experiment I mentioned in my journal. But to never have ice cream or pasta again.....that would make me very sad :sadcry:
Yes, indeed. I think there are different subclassifications of the issues. That is, there isn't a one size fits all recovery approach. There isn't for anything.
Perhaps for some, they can't revisit a food. For others, they can and then can go on with a healthier relationship with that food.
Experiment perhaps?
If I come across anything, I'll post. As it stands, I don't know.
jackieleigh
09-07-2007, 01:20 AM
Visionquester- are you seeing a professional? What book are you using? This approach (the journaling, the non restricting, the eating whatever you want in "normal" portions) you are using is commonly used in ED therapy today. It does work, but really only with a professional at your side to explain to you the concepts behind the work.
It is very admirable of you to be sharing your experiences
BBB- you have a much better way with words than I do. Thank you.
Noel Clark
09-07-2007, 01:42 AM
I think that it is important that we all keep in mind that there is no advice being given here. It is a DISCUSSION thread. I think that it is critical that if you think that you fall in line with ANY of these behaviors that you need to talk to someone becuase like ppl have stated before...this isn't something that you can really 'handle' on your own and it can be a very damaging disorder regardless if it is BN, AN or a food addiction. I also think it is very important that we always keep reading and researching new info...NOBODY knows everything...there are constantly new findings out there.
:o I think I'm going to delete all my posts in here.
Ali- Id hate to see that.. To me you have really contributed a great deal to this thread...
I'd like to post a reminder ... just to be clear about something.
That there is no advice being given out on this thread. It's information. And just because the information appears to be the opposite of how some people got well (even if there was advice being given, which there isn't), does that mean that there is ONE way for every person to get well?
I can't speak for anyone else posting but I am posting what I am coming across in my own research since I find the topic very interesting (for obvious reasons). Published material, research and studies. This is not based on my simple opinion. This is information that is at the front of current research and is being actively studied by experts in this field as Noel mentioned. Clearly there's something there to be considered. I'm simply posting about it. Everyone has access to it.
Nowhere in this thread has anyone said there is one way to recovery. In fact, there have been multiple posts by multiple people saying that it needs to be a multifaceted approach to recovery. That there can't be one way.
The other reminder is that the thread was intended to be about the topic of Food Addiction.
Thunder, I'm academic - I know what junk gets published, especially in psychiatry. At best, it's a pseudo-science and this leaves room for all sorts of **** to get published.
You'll notice that I directed members who believe that they have a serious problem to some books and to find a professional who specializes in eating disorders. But that I've given no advice myself on how to recover from one.
I've only stated that I believe that your advice of abstaining is, in my experience, not how people recover from such problems. You are a fitness professional. Stick to giving out advice on how to prep for contests. Or at least consider the possibility that the advice that you are giving out might do more harm than good. Even if you are right, and however unlikely I think that is, I am willing to consider that it's possible, you are still not qualified to make the distinction for people.
Did you really think that you could start a thread titled "Food Addiction," list all of the indicators of BN (and, I might add, not even attempt to make a distinction (at least at first)) and not expect people to talk about EDs? That is either silly or stupid. I'm not sure which.
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