Body part training vs. movement plane training

[donnajo]

A lot of us here have moved away from bodypart splits but I wonder if there is a time that they are appropriate.

Do they serve a purpose? If so when would you incorporate one and when the other. Would bodypart be more for hypertrophy and specialization while movement plane is more for function, performance , and strength. More how an athlete trains.

Is one better than the other? Does it matter?

Just want to discuss!!!! What are your pros and cons for each!

[Erik]

A lot of us here have moved away from bodypart splits but I wonder if there is a time that they are appropriate.

Definitely.

I think often times we fall into the 'flavour of the day' mentality and swing the pendulum allllllllll the way to the left, just because it was allllllll the way to the right before.

Ie. Bodypart splits at the one end and movement-based/full body at the other.

Another example is the SS cardio vs interval cardio. Same thing. Lyle has been writing about this recently as well.

There are camps that are completely against SS cardio in favour for interval training. We all know you can only do so much intervals right before it's simply too much. The best strategy is a COMBINATION of intervals and SS cardio.

With the training aspect, there is a time and a place for everything. Programs aren't just a collection of exercises and often what some deem as bodypart splits could be also perhaps seen as upper push/upper pull + lower body workouts. :shrug:

When it comes to strength development, rehearsal and motor learning is something that can't be overlooked, so increased frequency (which means less emphasis on bodyparts) would seem appropriate. On the flip side with hypertrophy training, you can also take a different approach and hit bodyparts with more volume, which then demands more rest.

Specialization programs, geared towards hypertrophy, are also basic bodypart splits in a sense.

To throw them out because they're not popular in some circles seems silly. I've used bodypart splits off and on for years, even in recent years. And I've done full body and upper/lower splits as well. They're all just tools, appropriate for different phases of training.

Like SS cardio, no one can say that BP splits never work - history says otherwise.

Right now for example, I'm doing what I would consider a lot of training volume, on what amounts to a 6-days per week bodypart split (everything is still getting hit twice per week). And in a defiict. And it's going well. And I've got leaner, not lost any strength, feel good and am doing no cardio.

The volume issue is another one - I think sometimes people are afraid of doing too much because certain people say you can't recover from anything while dieting. Of course adding volume without rhyme or reason is another think. Junk volume is junk volume. But blanket statements are often wrong.

Again, I think the 'middle of the road' mindset is the right one. Everything has its place in your program at some point or another; goal dependent of course.

[Meechel]

Nice answer Erik!

[Blondell]

Nice answer Erik!

^^ditto

[donnajo]

I agree. Excellent post E. :thumb:

I would tend to think that during dieting it would be better to use more movement plane because you are just trying to maintain muscle and during bulking you could incorporate body part splits. Do you agree with this?

I really am trying to learn as much as I can about programming and that is why I ask these questions. :D

[Erik]

I agree. Excellent post E. :thumb:

I would tend to think that during dieting it would be better to use more movement plane because you are just trying to maintain muscle and during bulking you could incorporate body part splits. Do you agree with this?

My answer is 'depends'.

I think more often than not, sure.

But I'm doing a bodypart split while dieting right now with like I said, lots of volume and lots of training. No ill effects whatsoever. But again, it's properly placed and managed.



I really am trying to learn as much as I can about programming and that is why I ask these questions. :D

I think an important point is to not get caught up in the rigidity of the programming 'rules'. I think that can lock us out of some good training experiences. I'm learning this for myself as well. There are general rules and principles of course, but there has to be an endless way of packaging them.

It comes down to the actual training experience first and foremost. Sets, reps, etc are all just variables and information - the goal is the training experience.

[RpH]

I would have written what Erik wrote if I would have known all that.

[donnajo]

I would have written what Erik wrote if I would have known all that.


:lol3: That just made me giggle.

[donnajo]

My answer is 'depends'.

I think more often than not, sure.

But I'm doing a bodypart split while dieting right now with like I said, lots of volume and lots of training. No ill effects whatsoever. But again, it's properly placed and managed.



I think an important point is to not get caught up in the rigidity of the programming 'rules'. I think that can lock us out of some good training experiences. I'm learning this for myself as well. There are general rules and principles of course, but there has to be an endless way of packaging them.

It comes down to the actual training experience first and foremost. Sets, reps, etc are all just variables and information - the goal is the training experience.

So I guess I will be using myself as a test dummy from now on to see how different methods work and when.:lol:

I tend to want things to be this way or that so I understand what you are saying about being more flexible and not so rigid with rules. Now I just need to put that in practice.

Thanks Big E!

[donnajo]

Definitely.

I think often times we fall into the 'flavour of the day' mentality and swing the pendulum allllllllll the way to the left, just because it was allllllll the way to the right before.

Ie. Bodypart splits at the one end and movement-based/full body at the other.

Another example is the SS cardio vs interval cardio. Same thing. Lyle has been writing about this recently as well.

There are camps that are completely against SS cardio in favour for interval training. We all know you can only do so much intervals right before it's simply too much. The best strategy is a COMBINATION of intervals and SS cardio.

With the training aspect, there is a time and a place for everything. Programs aren't just a collection of exercises and often what some deem as bodypart splits could be also perhaps seen as upper push/upper pull + lower body workouts. :shrug:

When it comes to strength development, rehearsal and motor learning is something that can't be overlooked, so increased frequency (which means less emphasis on bodyparts) would seem appropriate. On the flip side with hypertrophy training, you can also take a different approach and hit bodyparts with more volume, which then demands more rest.

Specialization programs, geared towards hypertrophy, are also basic bodypart splits in a sense.

To throw them out because they're not popular in some circles seems silly. I've used bodypart splits off and on for years, even in recent years. And I've done full body and upper/lower splits as well. They're all just tools, appropriate for different phases of training.

Like SS cardio, no one can say that BP splits never work - history says otherwise.

Right now for example, I'm doing what I would consider a lot of training volume, on what amounts to a 6-days per week bodypart split (everything is still getting hit twice per week). And in a defiict. And it's going well. And I've got leaner, not lost any strength, feel good and am doing no cardio.

The volume issue is another one - I think sometimes people are afraid of doing too much because certain people say you can't recover from anything while dieting. Of course adding volume without rhyme or reason is another think. Junk volume is junk volume. But blanket statements are often wrong.

Again, I think the 'middle of the road' mindset is the right one. Everything has its place in your program at some point or another; goal dependent of course.

But you are still hitting twice a week. That makes sense. The traditional bodypart splits that hit once a week. Like for example::

m: chest (because it is monday:lol3:)
tu: back
wed: off
Thursday: shoulders
Friday : legs
Sat. arms
Sun off

This would not be productive and stimulating unless you were on roids. Correct? You generally do want to stimulate the muscle twice per week for adaquate gains for a natural.

[Erik]

But you are still hitting twice a week. That makes sense. The traditional bodypart splits that hit once a week. Like for example::

m: chest (because it is monday:lol3:)
tu: back
wed: off
Thursday: shoulders
Friday : legs
Sat. arms
Sun off

This would not be productive and stimulating unless you were on roids. Correct? You generally do want to stimulate the muscle twice per week for adaquate gains for a natural.

Well, I don't think THAT set up is very good, but it's not necessarily representative of all bodypart splits. That's a one-body-part-per-day split.

In that one though, shoulders are getting hit twice, triceps three times, biceps twice. Back might get hit twice depending on what the lower body workout looks like. Quads and chest once.

Of course, a whole day with nothing but shoulders is generally big time overkill considering they get hit all the time anyway and are probably the most overtrained muscle in most people.

[donnajo]

Well, I don't think THAT set up is very good, but it's not necessarily representative of all bodypart splits. That's a one-body-part-per-day split.

In that one though, shoulders are getting hit twice, triceps three times, biceps twice. Back might get hit twice depending on what the lower body workout looks like. Quads and chest once.

Of course, a whole day with nothing but shoulders is generally big time overkill considering they get hit all the time anyway and are probably the most overtrained muscle in most people.

Oh, I know that is just one very bad one for example that you see people do. But a push / pull, upper /lower might be good etc.

Ok, can I say this? , a good general rule of thumb is to make sure you hit each muscle group twice and arrange them so you are not overlapping and hammering one too much. And that it is the right training for your goal.

As long as you keep that in mind then how you split it up really should not matter. Would this be a right train of thought?

[Anca]

Definitely.

I think often times we fall into the 'flavour of the day' mentality and swing the pendulum allllllllll the way to the left, just because it was allllllll the way to the right before.

Ie. Bodypart splits at the one end and movement-based/full body at the other.

Another example is the SS cardio vs interval cardio. Same thing. Lyle has been writing about this recently as well.

There are camps that are completely against SS cardio in favour for interval training. We all know you can only do so much intervals right before it's simply too much. The best strategy is a COMBINATION of intervals and SS cardio.

With the training aspect, there is a time and a place for everything. Programs aren't just a collection of exercises and often what some deem as bodypart splits could be also perhaps seen as upper push/upper pull + lower body workouts. :shrug:

When it comes to strength development, rehearsal and motor learning is something that can't be overlooked, so increased frequency (which means less emphasis on bodyparts) would seem appropriate. On the flip side with hypertrophy training, you can also take a different approach and hit bodyparts with more volume, which then demands more rest.

Specialization programs, geared towards hypertrophy, are also basic bodypart splits in a sense.

To throw them out because they're not popular in some circles seems silly. I've used bodypart splits off and on for years, even in recent years. And I've done full body and upper/lower splits as well. They're all just tools, appropriate for different phases of training.

Like SS cardio, no one can say that BP splits never work - history says otherwise.

Right now for example, I'm doing what I would consider a lot of training volume, on what amounts to a 6-days per week bodypart split (everything is still getting hit twice per week). And in a defiict. And it's going well. And I've got leaner, not lost any strength, feel good and am doing no cardio.

The volume issue is another one - I think sometimes people are afraid of doing too much because certain people say you can't recover from anything while dieting. Of course adding volume without rhyme or reason is another think. Junk volume is junk volume. But blanket statements are often wrong.

Again, I think the 'middle of the road' mindset is the right one. Everything has its place in your program at some point or another; goal dependent of course.

This answer reflects every single one of my biweekly for the past 20 weeks. :thumb: Erik is the king of variety!

[clc315]

Although I'm biased toward pure movements rather than "movement planes" and bodyparts splits, I can't really say one is better than the other. it depends on ones goals and personal preference. I think the term "train like an athlete" or "athletic training" is a miseading term. All athletes don't train the same, so which group of athletes should a person who wants to improve certain aspects mimic their training after? Let's not forget that alot of athletes train with bodyparts splits and other less than optimal methodologies for their sport. So if a successful high level athlete is following a less than optimal training program then how much is the resistance training portion contributing to their success? I don't think much at all depending on the athlete and sport .

On the flip side, a person who is concerned with appearance only might prefer a bodyparts type routine. Doesn't make it worse than a movement based program. Function dictates form .

Please excuse any errors, I'm typing this on my phone.

[Visionquester]

Of course, a whole day with nothing but shoulders is generally big time overkill considering they get hit all the time anyway and are probably the most overtrained muscle in most people.

Oops..just finished a whole month of nothing but shoulders!!! My bad.

~C.
(I especially loved Saturday's...that was nothing but Rear Delts!)

[smuggie]

Oops..just finished a whole month of nothing but shoulders!!! My bad.

~C.
(I especially loved Saturday's...that was nothing but Rear Delts!)

Were you doing a shoulder specialization?

[Erik]

Oops..just finished a whole month of nothing but shoulders!!! My bad.

~C.
(I especially loved Saturday's...that was nothing but Rear Delts!)

:shrug:

[Erik]

Were you doing a shoulder specialization?

That would pretty much be the only time when it's a good idea in most cases.

When I did mine, I bombed my shoulders three times/week, albeit with different parameters and goals to each session.

[Visionquester]

That would pretty much be the only time when it's a good idea in most cases.

When I did mine, I bombed my shoulders three times/week, albeit with different parameters and goals to each session.


Me too... width, overall, and rear.

Don't know if it worked though...right one looks nice and capped...left one is lagging.....

So if they are overtrained..does that mean that they will break down and shrink?

~C.

[Visionquester]

Definitely.

I think often times we fall into the 'flavour of the day' mentality and swing the pendulum allllllllll the way to the left, just because it was allllllll the way to the right before.

Ie. Bodypart splits at the one end and movement-based/full body at the other.

Another example is the SS cardio vs interval cardio. Same thing. Lyle has been writing about this recently as well.

There are camps that are completely against SS cardio in favour for interval training. We all know you can only do so much intervals right before it's simply too much. The best strategy is a COMBINATION of intervals and SS cardio.

With the training aspect, there is a time and a place for everything. Programs aren't just a collection of exercises and often what some deem as bodypart splits could be also perhaps seen as upper push/upper pull + lower body workouts. :shrug:

When it comes to strength development, rehearsal and motor learning is something that can't be overlooked, so increased frequency (which means less emphasis on bodyparts) would seem appropriate. On the flip side with hypertrophy training, you can also take a different approach and hit bodyparts with more volume, which then demands more rest.

Specialization programs, geared towards hypertrophy, are also basic bodypart splits in a sense.

To throw them out because they're not popular in some circles seems silly. I've used bodypart splits off and on for years, even in recent years. And I've done full body and upper/lower splits as well. They're all just tools, appropriate for different phases of training.

Like SS cardio, no one can say that BP splits never work - history says otherwise.

Right now for example, I'm doing what I would consider a lot of training volume, on what amounts to a 6-days per week bodypart split (everything is still getting hit twice per week). And in a defiict. And it's going well. And I've got leaner, not lost any strength, feel good and am doing no cardio.

The volume issue is another one - I think sometimes people are afraid of doing too much because certain people say you can't recover from anything while dieting. Of course adding volume without rhyme or reason is another think. Junk volume is junk volume. But blanket statements are often wrong.

Again, I think the 'middle of the road' mindset is the right one. Everything has its place in your program at some point or another; goal dependent of course.


Nice post for sure.
~C.

[Erik]

Me too... width, overall, and rear.

Not really what I meant for me. Intensity, volume and density were my days.



So if they are overtrained..does that mean that they will break down and shrink?
~C.

Too many variables to say yes or no.

If you hit your shoulders with an enormous amount of volume for a block of training, the subsequent block should contain little, if any direct shoulder work. Specialization programs basically overtrain (or rather, overreach) the designated muscle group. Then when you dramatically cut back on the volume and let them rest, THAT'S when they respond. Supercompensation is delayed until the fatigue factor has dissipated.

[Visionquester]

Not really what I meant for me. Intensity, volume and density were my days.



Too many variables to say yes or no.

If you hit your shoulders with an enormous amount of volume for a block of training, the subsequent block should contain little, if any direct shoulder work. Specialization programs basically overtrain (or rather, overreach) the designated muscle group. Then when you dramatically cut back on the volume and let them rest, THAT'S when they respond. Supercompensation is delayed until the fatigue factor has dissipated.

Intensity, volume, and density... Oh. :blink:

About what you said about reponding after the fact... I had that feeling that's the way it was working but didn't know it until you just told me.
I always feel like I make better gains on 4 days a week rather than 5 or 6 as well.

Very helpful and very thoughtful (and very patient) with your responses. I appreciate it. :D

~C.

[straitshooter]

what a great thread, and of course, your answers, Thunder, were really informative!

I have done it all ways! :) Right now I am training body parts, but every other week or so i mix it up to push/pulls. I basically have no real direction right now so I'm just winging it!

[Tony]

Definitely.
Right now for example, I'm doing what I would consider a lot of training volume, on what amounts to a 6-days per week bodypart split (everything is still getting hit twice per week). And in a defiict. And it's going well. And I've got leaner, not lost any strength, feel good and am doing no cardio.


Say what? How are you pulling this off? Are the high volume sessions scheduled around refeeds?

[Erik]

Say what? How are you pulling this off? Are the high volume sessions scheduled around refeeds?

No refeeds and no cheats.

Every day is high volume. One body part heavy - 5-8 reps over 3-4 exercises (and about 3-4 sets) with full recovery (no failure; the closest I get is 2 reps shy) and one bodypart light - 10-15 and higher for quads over 3-4 exercises and multiple sets with incomplete recovery - about 30 seconds.

I think just like the message in this thread, that people have become a bit too terrified of doing some volume. Middle of the road is best and there's a time and a place for everything. My last set up was low volume. This one is very high. Next one will likely be lower again.

No ill effects whatsoever. No cardio and I'm getting leaner and performance improved (strength and work capacity) on everything so far (just finishing my second week).

I'm just experimenting for a month.

[Tony]

No refeeds and no cheats.

Every day is high volume. One body part heavy - 5-8 reps over 3-4 exercises (and about 3-4 sets) with full recovery (no failure; the closest I get is 2 reps shy) and one bodypart light - 10-15 and higher for quads over 3-4 exercises and multiple sets with incomplete recovery - about 30 seconds.

I think just like the message in this thread, that people have become a bit too terrified of doing some volume. Middle of the road is best and there's a time and a place for everything. My last set up was low volume. This one is very high. Next one will likely be lower again.

No ill effects whatsoever. No cardio and I'm getting leaner and performance improved (strength and work capacity) on everything so far (just finishing my second week).

I'm just experimenting for a month.

I think the key to training while dieting is not necessarily keeping volume low, but to not run yourself into the ground. This is definitely something I would like to try. Sporto from BR was actually doing something similar during his last contest prep.

[Espi]

Movement plane is just a fancier name than body parts. Someone who's making smart choices won't really come up with a bad schedule.

Having said this, I really was caught by surprise how changing a program that had me train legs directly or indirectly but tended to be more dominant for quads and lower back to a program that still hit legs but was more ham-dominant and targeted upper back more ran me into the ground within 2 weeks.

I'd joined another gym so that I can now do plate-loaded leg presses again, as well as T-bar rows and there's a (rather unsafe) squat rack where I can do good mornings. So, there were a lot of exercises that I'd not done in eons.
I just was so NOT prepared for the massive DOMS that came with a change of exercises. Volume barely changed and my cardio had even decreased for a bit but yet I felt like being run over by a truck.

Somehow you just can't adapt as well to a new training program when you are on a (tiny) deficit. I'm still shaking my head over it.

[Blondell]

:bump:


I wanna come back to this one later when I have more time. :D

[Patricia]

Every day is high volume. One body part heavy - 5-8 reps over 3-4 exercises (and about 3-4 sets) with full recovery (no failure; the closest I get is 2 reps shy) and one bodypart light - 10-15 and higher for quads over 3-4 exercises and multiple sets with incomplete recovery - about 30 seconds.





I like this....
think I may try it for a while......

[Sohee]

Interesting.
Very very interesting.