Circumcision?

[PerfectAnjail]

So, what are your opinions on this? What about your husband's/so's opinion?

I am really confused as to what to do, I really don't want to cause my baby any extra pain because it's just something that's most people do...

I have tried to read up on the subject and it seems there are very strong opinions both ways. But the only medical reasons (backed by some type of research) I can find for doing it, is...well, there really wasn't any. The perceived cleaniless factor and to "look like daddy." Were amongst the reasons why women circumcise their baby's. (beyond religious)

Thoughts? I'm going in circles over this... :shrug:

[mybell]

We didn't circumise our son basically because we didn't understand why there was a need to. He's 7 now, and no problems, just need to teach them to clean themselves, it's a non issue really. My MIL, gave us grief because he wouldn't like like Daddy. We said we would just explain to him why we didn't do it. mostly the pain and it being unneccassary.

[liberty]

Hi PA, I know you already read this on o2 but it bears repeating :p

Yay, my fav topic I had to do research on this for our hospital maternity floor to make a phamplet. There was a big long thread about this too. While I believe this is a very personal decision I also think people should have all the facts. I don't know in the US what the stats are but in canada 90% of boys are NOT circ'd and in some provinces it is as high as 95%. The american and canadian pediatric society have both made statements to the effect that there is no medical reason for a child to be cir'd and it is considered cosmetic surgery. Having it done can impact breast feeding as it is a medical procedure so if you choose, wait until BF is established and get it done after by a urologist (unless you are jewish then go with the person you are supposed to)

Little known facts:
-Penile cancer is brought up as a reason for circ- a boy has a higher risk of dying from a circumsision than they do of penile cancer

-It is cleaner - not if you teach you little guy how to wash and when they are adults the foreskin acts as lubrication

-more likelyhood of STD - not so if they use protection as you would hope your son would

-Your son will have a larger penis if not circ'd than if he was width and length

-While it is true that some kids need a circ when they are older for medical reasons they can be much more heavily medicated than a new born so less pain and you can talk about it.

-Boys don't care if they look like dad or not, my son feels bad that daddy doesn't have a peeny-cover

Them's the facts ladies make the decision best for your family, I swear I do not judge anyones choice I just like to make sure the choice is made informed
C

[homeschoolmom]

All 3 of my boys were circ'd. I didn't really want them to be, but my hubby felt really strongly about it, so I caved. DH really wanted his boys to look like him. Where I am, the OBGYN performs the circumcision, which I really don't understand. Why do OB's perform the surgery and not pediatrician's? At any rate, I still have some mommy guilt over this issue. If I could go back, I would not have allowed my DH to pressure me into it.

Now I do have a friend who recently did have to have her uncircumcised son(6 year old) circumcised. He developed an infection which caused the foreskin to close over the tip of the penis. Not pretty. He had to have surgery because he couldn't urinate, but at least he was sedated and had pain killers on board, which is more than I can say for my poor boys when they were circumcised.

PA, good luck with this decision. It's a toughie! :)

[Blondell]

I made the decision to have my son circumcised and they did not take off enough skin. I did not realize it at the time b/c I was 18yrs old and thought that as time went on it would change. It has not. So, now he is halfway in b/t. It upsets me somewhat b/c I know that at some point I will have to tell him why it is not fully one way or the other. Also, he will have to explain it when it comes time for him to show himself to his wife in the future. :sad: I don't regret the decision, but I do regret not having done solid research on the subject, at least enough to know how it should look once it is done.

[theresak]

I had mine circumcised - for cleanliness reasons. My doc, however, uses numbing cream so they aren't in pain. Even afterwards, they showed no signs of pain when cleaning - and there was only a dot of blood. But you gotta do what you feel is best for yourboy no matter what anybody else says.

[ShimmyPrincess]

Originally posted by bdd814@Jun 6 2006, 04:10 PM
I made the decision to have my son circumcised and they did not take off enough skin. I did not realize it at the time b/c I was 18yrs old and thought that as time went on it would change. It has not. So, now he is halfway in b/t. It upsets me somewhat b/c I know that at some point I will have to tell him why it is not fully one way or the other. Also, he will have to explain it when it comes time for him to show himself to his wife in the future. :sad: I don't regret the decision, but I do regret not having done solid research on the subject, at least enough to know how it should look once it is done.
That happened to my friend's son. It's kind of in between, you can't really tel if it was done or not.

I had my son circ'd, it wasn't something I felt strongly about either way but his dad wanted it done. My two stepsons weren't circ'd and once they asked why they were different and we explained that both ways are normal it's just something that sometimes parents decide to do. One of my stepsons does have problems with his, the skin is tight (almost as if there's not enough) and it gets really smelly really fast.

[Leah]

Mine's cut and if I had another, I'd do it again

[Erik]

I couldn't read this thread.

I just popped in, started reading a reply, and had to 'comfort' myself. I must leave now.

[Tina]

Originally posted by Thunder@Jun 6 2006, 10:03 PM
I couldn't read this thread.

I just popped in, started reading a reply, and had to 'comfort' myself. I must leave now.
:lol:

what?!

[Strive2Define]

Had all three of mine circumsized and I would do it again as well.Yes it painful but they do not remember it and it is not nearly as painful for them when they are a day old than it will cause them if they decide to do it later in life.

[Tina]

Liberty where did you get that stat that 90% of boys are not circumsized? It doesn't seem right to me.

[Strive2Define]

Originally posted by Tina@Jun 6 2006, 10:13 PM
Liberty where did you get that stat that 90% of boys are not circumsized? It doesn't seem right to me.
I'm not buying into that either.......

[fitnesschick]

"The Canadian Children's Rights Council considers circumcision to be genital mutilation of children.
The statistics show more Canadians parents are not having their infant sons circumcised ( genitally mutilated ). The rate for male infants in Canada has dropped from about 50% in 1998 to about 20% in 2000. The overall incidence of male circumcision for all of Canada declined to about 13.9 percent for the year 2003.
Rates of male infant circumcision in the province of Quebec dropped from about 30% in 1971 to a current rate of less than 3%. The rate in the province of Ontario, Canada's most populous province dropped from about 60% in 1971 to about 18% in 2003. Western provinces generally have dropped the same rate to about 20-25%. Newfoundland had a 1971 rate of about 7% and has dropped to about .6% at most in 2001. Nova Scotia had a 1971 rate of approximately 53% and has dropped to a 2001 rate of 1.5%."


here's the link, i didn't look at the link at all but it seems to be anti-circ http://www.canadiancrc.com/circumcision/circumcision.htm

more rates for canada http://www.courtchallenge.com/refs/yr99p-e.html

these figures seem to be accurate. my friend is a public health nurse and says the rate is over 80% uncircumsized. there is only one doctor in my community who will do circumsicions and he does them very reluctantly and tries to convince the parents otherwise.

i personally did not have my boys done. they have had no problems. if you do get it done, please ask for anesthesia. there is evidence to show that babies do remember the pain.

http://www.canadiancrc.com/circumcision/circumcision.htm
"Exposure to prolonged or severe pain may increase neonatal morbidity; infants who experienced pain during the neonatal period (up to 1 month of age) respond differently to subsequent painful events; a lack of behavioral responses (including crying and movement) does not necessarily mean lack of pain." --American Academy of Pediatrics and Canadian Paediatric Society Policy Statement. Prevention and Management of Pain and Stress in the Neonate. Pediatrics 2000 Feb; (105)2:454-461.

another study on pain http://www.infocirc.org/babypain.htm

[GqArtguy]

For those of you cut and "would do it again," what is the reasoning behind your past and current decision?

[3sweeties]

I would like to hear a few males opinion on the subject.

[Dane]

I do think it's a personal decision to be made by both parents after discussion and research.

That said, I have 2 boys, both uncircumcised. The first one, now almost 8, was born in the States, and his father was circumcised. The father suggested having our son cut, so they would "look the same", but I couldn't see causing my new baby pain, plus I found no medical reason to do it. My son's father was ok with the decision to leave it.

I ended up separating from the father, and am now married to an uncircumcised man, and we have a son (2yo) together. There wasn't even a discussion about whether or not to cut--we live in Europe, and it's basically a given than you don't cut, unless it's for religious reasons.

I'm currently pregnant with kid #3, not sure of gender yet, but if it's a boy, he will also be uncirc'd.

For the record, neither boy nor husband has smell/discharge/hygiene troubles. You just wash it like you would any other body part. :)

[PerfectAnjail]

Originally posted by 3sweeties@Jun 7 2006, 06:17 AM
I would like to hear a few males opinion on the subject.
I'm definitely with you on this.

Thunder seems to have an opinion on the matter, but I don't know if he'll be back in this thread to even read this...

I would like males' opinions on this, as someday the young boy will be "you."

[Q45]

Originally posted by 3sweeties@Jun 7 2006, 06:17 AM
I would like to hear a few males opinion on the subject.
circumcision.....hummmm....yes iv been circumcised and i think most males have also.....not that i know for a fact ;) its just seems the common thing to do to babys after theyr born...not haveing to worry about foreskin is nice(tmi??)im glad i had it done to my son..

[trigirl]

My son is circumcised, and if we were to have another (having a girl this time), we would do it again. You have to do the research, and decide what is best for your son (not you, or your husband -- although for most men, "like father, like son"). Luckily, my husband works in the medical field, so we have access to ample research (ie: not "google" type research -- where you typically get misguided and radical/slanted information). People have very strong opinions about this, and I can understand both sides. BTW: I'm sure Judaisim and other religions would find the idea that "circumcision=mutilation", completely offensive, IMO.

[Tina]

I never thought this was such a big issue for people :blink:

[Q45]

Originally posted by Tina@Jun 7 2006, 08:31 AM
I never thought this was such a big issue for people :blink:
i agree...

[3sweeties]

I find it interesting that women are more concerned about it than men. That's why I'm more interested in the male perspective.

[Miker]

I am... all my friends were...

my son is not...


There is no medical reason to do so and any religion that determines you should cut off part of your body is fucking lunatic.

When I was a kid, 90% of all boys were circumcised. My doctor says that now, less than 50% of the boys in his practice are circumcised. Times are changing and barbaric traditions are being phased out.

Why would I mutilate my son... in the name of esthetics? There is no other reason.

[PerfectAnjail]

Originally posted by Miker@Jun 7 2006, 09:04 AM
I am... all my friends were...

my son is not...


There is no medical reason to do so and any religion that determines you should cut off part of your body is fucking lunatic.

When I was a kid, 90% of all boys were circumcised. My doctor says that now, less than 50% of the boys in his practice are circumcised. Times are changing and barbaric traditions are being phased out.

Why would I mutilate my son... in the name of esthetics? There is no other reason.
When you were growing up, did you find that anyone cared about that 1/10 that was not circumcised? Like is it something that's brought up in locker rooms, etc?

[spicy~d]

Originally posted by bdd814@Jun 6 2006, 06:10 PM
I made the decision to have my son circumcised and they did not take off enough skin. I did not realize it at the time b/c I was 18yrs old and thought that as time went on it would change. It has not. So, now he is halfway in b/t. It upsets me somewhat b/c I know that at some point I will have to tell him why it is not fully one way or the other. Also, he will have to explain it when it comes time for him to show himself to his wife in the future. :sad: I don't regret the decision, but I do regret not having done solid research on the subject, at least enough to know how it should look once it is done.
I think this is what my son's is like. It looks half way done. BUT the pedi urologist says it's fine and his fat pad there needs to go away and then it will look normal. His adhered to the penis , so we had to have it fixed a while back. It was horrible. He was in alot of pain. And , just recently it got kinda infected and started to adhere again. So, we pulled it down.... :( he cried alot.
Supposedly it is fine, but we think it wasn't done correctly when he was a baby.
In hindsight, I would've still had it done. But, it seems like in our area, LOTS of mommies are choosing not to circumsize.
d

[Miker]

Originally posted by PerfectAnjail+Jun 7 2006, 10:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (PerfectAnjail @ Jun 7 2006, 10:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Miker@Jun 7 2006, 09:04 AM
I am... all my friends were...

my son is not...


There is no medical reason to do so and any religion that determines you should cut off part of your body is fucking lunatic.

When I was a kid, 90% of all boys were circumcised. My doctor says that now, less than 50% of the boys in his practice are circumcised. Times are changing and barbaric traditions are being phased out.

Why would I mutilate my son... in the name of esthetics? There is no other reason.
When you were growing up, did you find that anyone cared about that 1/10 that was not circumcised? Like is it something that&#39;s brought up in locker rooms, etc? [/b][/quote]
nope.. didn&#39;t care... nobody said anything... wasn&#39;t ever an issue.

More guys got made fun of over how long it took them to grow a beard than whether they had a cut penis or not.

[PerfectAnjail]

Originally posted by Miker+Jun 7 2006, 10:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Miker @ Jun 7 2006, 10:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Miker@Jun 7 2006, 09:04 AM

nope.. didn&#39;t care... nobody said anything... wasn&#39;t ever an issue.

More guys got made fun of over how long it took them to grow a beard than whether they had a cut penis or not. [/b][/quote]
Now that I think about...I guess then, you would have to acknowledge checking out another guys penis&#33; :funny:

[ShaliHead]

Why do they need to "look the same"? It weirds me out a little.

[Miker]

Originally posted by ShaliHead@Jun 7 2006, 11:57 AM
Why do they need to "look the same"? It weirds me out a little.
It&#39;s a cop out excuse to be a lemming and follow the crowd over the cliff. It doesn&#39;t have to look the same.. my boy has noticed the difference and doesn&#39;t care...

[GqArtguy]

All of my uncles and men a generation or m ore before me were cut. My mom was a nurse and had no good reason to do it since mine didnt adhere like it happens to some boys. And circumscision is not all that common outside of the US, and even then its waning here too.

As far as looking like the rest of the men in my family, my mom really couldnt care less. She just didnt see a reason for it. Its never been an issue for me, her, my family, or the women Ive dated.

For me, if I ever have a child, I wont do that unless its medically necessary. That skin is there for a reason, otherwise we would have evolved to a point where it wasnt necessary to have it.

[Tina]

Originally posted by PerfectAnjail+Jun 7 2006, 10:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (PerfectAnjail &#064; Jun 7 2006, 10:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Miker@Jun 7 2006, 09:04 AM
I am... all my friends were...

my son is not...


There is no medical reason to do so and any religion that determines you should cut off part of your body is fucking lunatic.

When I was a kid, 90% of all boys were circumcised. My doctor says that now, less than 50% of the boys in his practice are circumcised. Times are changing and barbaric traditions are being phased out.

Why would I mutilate my son... in the name of esthetics? There is no other reason.
When you were growing up, did you find that anyone cared about that 1/10 that was not circumcised? Like is it something that&#39;s brought up in locker rooms, etc? [/b][/quote]
I asked my husband this and he said that no, most of the people he knew were circ but the ones that weren&#39;t never got teased. It was never an issue.

[Erik]

Must. Stay. Out. :thunder:

I was circumcized (perhaps TMI for you guys, sorry), but I&#39;m extremely glad that my parents went this route.

[fitnesschick]

Originally posted by ShaliHead@Jun 7 2006, 03:57 PM
Why do they need to "look the same"? It weirds me out a little.
i don&#39;t get this either at all. i try to understand the argument but boys look different from their fathers in many ways. i also didn&#39;t think sons and dads stood around comparing their penises :innocent:

[Swiss]

My DH is Jewish; I&#39;m not, but I did go back and forth before my DS was born.

What changed my mind was my SIL. She&#39;s a respected pediatric urologist, who also happens to be quite a crunchy/granola mom...homebirthing, extended breastfeeding, sling-wearing mama. (She&#39;s also an observant Jew and that was the reason she circ&#39;ed her sons.)

Previously, she did NOT advise parents to routinely circ. Said there was really no medical reason.

However, several years ago (5? 6? 7?) she, herself, changed her stance after reading more information. Since she has access to much more reliable information that I would have (I don&#39;t put much faith into research I find on the web) and can better interpret results, studies, etc., coupled with the fact that this was a pretty crunchy mom who changed her stance, I gave her recommendation much weight.

We did go ahead and have our son circ&#39;d.

[fitnesschick]

Originally posted by Thunder@Jun 7 2006, 04:43 PM
Must. Stay. Out. :thunder:

I was circumcized (perhaps TMI for you guys, sorry), but I&#39;m extremely glad that my parents went this route.
out of curiosity, why?

[fitnesschick]

Originally posted by Swiss@Jun 7 2006, 05:07 PM


However, several years ago (5? 6? 7?) she, herself, changed her stance after reading more information. Since she has access to much more reliable information that I would have (I don&#39;t put much faith into research I find on the web) and can better interpret results, studies, etc., coupled with the fact that this was a pretty crunchy mom who changed her stance, I gave her recommendation much weight.


would you mind sharing the information? are these studies i could find on PubMed?

[Miker]

Originally posted by fitnesschick+Jun 7 2006, 01:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (fitnesschick @ Jun 7 2006, 01:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Swiss@Jun 7 2006, 05:07 PM


However, several years ago (5? 6? 7?) she, herself, changed her stance after reading more information. Since she has access to much more reliable information that I would have (I don&#39;t put much faith into research I find on the web) and can better interpret results, studies, etc., coupled with the fact that this was a pretty crunchy mom who changed her stance, I gave her recommendation much weight.


would you mind sharing the information? are these studies i could find on PubMed? [/b][/quote]
I&#39;ve spoken to a couple urologists as well as a few docs.. and none of them has ever seen any convincing medical reason to circumcise. Again... the use of vague information as a cop out to act like a lemming. Chop chop chop away.. if the human was never meant to have it.. we wouldn&#39;t....

the question is why would you do it...? Not why wouldn&#39;t you. What overbearing reasons do you have to force your child to undergo something when THEY HAD NO CHOICE IN THE DECISION &#33;&#33; Christ.. its a good thing some religion didn&#39;t find the left arm to be necessarily removed ... or some doctor to decide that if we chop off our index fingers.. eye poking injuries will decline.. thus its medically necessary to remove them...:blink:

If my boy wants his foreskin cut off... he can wait until he is matured enough to make the decision. Until then...he&#39;s as designed.

[Tina]

Again, I didn&#39;t know this was such a big issue for some people :blink:

..now I know.

[Erik]

Originally posted by fitnesschick+Jun 7 2006, 01:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (fitnesschick @ Jun 7 2006, 01:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Thunder@Jun 7 2006, 04:43 PM
Must. Stay. Out. :thunder:

I was circumcized (perhaps TMI for you guys, sorry), but I&#39;m extremely glad that my parents went this route.
out of curiosity, why? [/b][/quote]
For me personally? Aesthetic reasons. :lol: I don&#39;t like the ant eater look.

[3sweeties]

I don&#39;t like the ant eater look. :lol: Me either.

[fitnesschick]

Originally posted by Thunder+Jun 7 2006, 06:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Thunder &#064; Jun 7 2006, 06:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by fitnesschick@Jun 7 2006, 01:13 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-Thunder@Jun 7 2006, 04:43 PM
Must. Stay. Out. :thunder:

I was circumcized (perhaps TMI for you guys, sorry), but I&#39;m extremely glad that my parents went this route.
out of curiosity, why?
For me personally? Aesthetic reasons. :lol: I don&#39;t like the ant eater look. [/b][/quote]
jeez i think they&#39;re actually pretty cute :) nor do they always look like anteaters when you&#39;re having fun with them ;)

well obviously i am not pro-circ. i cannot imagine removing such an errogenous, highly sensitive piece of skin from my sons without their permission. i agree with miker and waiting until the son is old enough to decide what he wants to do with it.

[Carrie]

Originally posted by Thunder+Jun 7 2006, 01:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Thunder @ Jun 7 2006, 01:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by fitnesschick@Jun 7 2006, 01:13 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-Thunder@Jun 7 2006, 04:43 PM
Must. Stay. Out. :thunder:

I was circumcized (perhaps TMI for you guys, sorry), but I&#39;m extremely glad that my parents went this route.
out of curiosity, why?
For me personally? Aesthetic reasons. :lol: I don&#39;t like the ant eater look. [/b][/quote]
I fully agree with this statement&#33;&#33;&#33; My husband is circumcised and if I ever have a son he will be as well.
I&#39;ve yet to hear any complaints from any circumcised man about it. It&#39;s not something that will emotionally scar anyone for life...do any of you circumcised guys actually have any recollection of the event??

As someone else pointed out, I had no idea this was such a big issue.

[Erik]

Originally posted by fitnesschick@Jun 7 2006, 02:37 PM
jeez i think they&#39;re actually pretty cute :)

well obviously i am not pro-circ. i cannot imagine removing such an errogenous, highly sensitive piece of skin from my sons without their permission. i agree with miker and waiting until the son is old enough to decide what he wants to do with it.
Eh, to each their own on the &#39;cuteness&#39; factor but I don&#39;t particularly ever want to hear a girl call my penis &#39;cute&#39;. :lol: Cute is not a good penis compliment.

As for getting it done as an adult? Not a chance that I&#39;d have ever done that. No. Way. I obviously had it done as a baby and I don&#39;t remember a thing.

Ok. Must. Leave. Thread.

[fitnesschick]

Originally posted by Thunder@Jun 7 2006, 06:39 PM


Ok. Must. Leave. Thread.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Miker]

Originally posted by Carrie+Jun 7 2006, 02:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Carrie @ Jun 7 2006, 02:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by Thunder@Jun 7 2006, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by fitnesschick@Jun 7 2006, 01:13 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-Thunder@Jun 7 2006, 04:43 PM
Must. Stay. Out. :thunder:

I was circumcized (perhaps TMI for you guys, sorry), but I&#39;m extremely glad that my parents went this route.
out of curiosity, why?
For me personally? Aesthetic reasons. :lol: I don&#39;t like the ant eater look.
I fully agree with this statement&#33;&#33;&#33; My husband is circumcised and if I ever have a son he will be as well.
I&#39;ve yet to hear any complaints from any circumcised man about it. It&#39;s not something that will emotionally scar anyone for life...do any of you circumcised guys actually have any recollection of the event??

As someone else pointed out, I had no idea this was such a big issue. [/b][/quote]
So... why not pierce his nipples and ears and sack.... there are quite a few women out there that like it? Why not circumcise a daughter too?

You are making a judgement to remove a part of a person&#39;s body without allowing that person to decide if they want it gone.

and... you are doing it based on YOUR idea of what looks good.. not his..

[magdalynaa]

I never got the "boys need to look like their dads" thing, either. I&#39;m probably gonna be really alarmed if I ever find my husband and any sons I might have sitting around and comparing their weiners. :blink:

I have no kids, but I have absolutely no intention of circumcising any sons I might have. I understand and respect that some religions support this belief, but since I&#39;m not a member of those religions, there is absolutely no compelling reason for me to do this. I&#39;m sufficiently opposed enough to this practice that if my choices in life were circumcising a child of mine or not having kids at all, I&#39;d choose not to have kids at all. I think I&#39;m pretty open-minded and willing to compromise on most issues, but this isn&#39;t one of them.

As a side note, I think uncut weenies are hot. I would go so far as to say I have an uncircumcised penis fetish. ;)

[Miker]

exactly what about religion makes it ok to mutilate? We make circumcising women illegal even though it is part of a number of east african cultures.. yet we ok the guillotining of the wiener (as magdalynaa so aptly named it).

Either.. mutilation without permission is ok.. or it isn&#39;t... religion has no trump card on this ... and frankly.. any religion that says I have to chop a piece of my son&#39;s wiener.. can kiss my fucking ass.

[Erik]

For the record, my dad is not circumsized, but I am. And yes, I remember this from being a wee one. He&#39;s European which would explain that I guess.

Whatever though. I&#39;m happy with the equipment. :p

[fitnesschick]

Originally posted by Tina@Jun 7 2006, 06:09 PM
Again, I didn&#39;t know this was such a big issue for some people* :blink:


the reason it is a big deal for many people is because it is unnecessary (exposing a newborn to several risks due to surgery), it involves removing a piece of a man&#39;s body that is intricately involved with his sexual pleasure (without his permission), it can interfere with breastfeeding, foreskins are used in face creams and just the way they perform circumcisions seems really unpleasant.

[magdalynaa]

Originally posted by Miker@Jun 7 2006, 06:57 PM
exactly what about religion makes it ok to mutilate? We make circumcising women illegal even though it is part of a number of east african cultures.. yet we ok the guillotining of the wiener (as magdalynaa so aptly named it).


This is my position exactly. I consider the practice to be mutilation, regardless of whether or not it is performed on males or females... it&#39;s carving up someone&#39;s body without his/her consent almost exclusively for the sake of conforming to some social standard.

[Hoochiemomma]

Okay - I&#39;m gonna go ahead and admit that I didn&#39;t read the whole thread, so if this is a repeat, s&#39;sorry.

The reasoning behind the "look the same as his daddy" doesn&#39;t sit right with me. By the time the boy&#39;s penis looks anything like his father&#39;s(tiny and hairless vs., well, you know), he will be in his teens, at which point they will not likely be doing side-by-side comparisons.

The argument that they didn&#39;t get to take part in the decision is iffy for me too - a parent is responsible for making many decisions before any child comes of age to legally do so. The hope is that the parent will make an educated choice in the best interest of the child.

That said - I have 2 boys, both uncircumcized. No troubles.

[andromeda]

My only son us uncirc&#39;d...we have had no troubles. If I had another son I would make the same decision and leave him intact-I don&#39;t even like to see my kids have to have blood tests, nevermind surgery. Eek.

A boy my son went to kinder with had something wrong with his uncirc&#39;d penis (femosis? I THINK that was what she called it-i&#39;m not quite sure if that was what his mom said it was.) He had to get circ&#39;d when he was 5 because they couldn&#39;t pull his foreskin back at all. His mom said he was running around the house that very same night doing cartwheels and all kinds of stuff. All she gave him was a couple of Motrin afterwards (obviously he had painkillers and such during the procedure.) He seemed to recover really quickly.

[ShaliHead]

Thunder-you are banned from this thread. Now get out already. :lol:

[Erik]

Originally posted by ShaliHead@Jun 7 2006, 03:38 PM
Thunder-you are banned from this thread. Now get out already. :lol:
:unsure:

[gin]

I saw an episode of Penn & Teller: Bullshit&#33; about circumcision. They said that 30% of the nerves of the penis are on the foreskin. That&#39;s reason enough to leave it alone.... :p &#092;
http://www.sho.com/site/ptbs/prevepisodes....isodeid=s3/circ (http://www.sho.com/site/ptbs/prevepisodes.do?episodeid=s3/circ)

[magdalynaa]

Originally posted by gin@Jun 7 2006, 07:55 PM
I saw an episode of Penn & Teller: Bullshit&#33; about circumcision.
Oddly enough, the hubby was gung-ho for circumcision until he saw that episode. As much as I&#39;m glad that he agrees with me, I find it deeply disturbing that he changed his mind on account of Penn and Teller. :lol:

[gin]

It was a very compelling episode. Particularly the old guy that showed you how you could get the foreskin back if you want it.

[magdalynaa]

Originally posted by gin@Jun 7 2006, 07:59 PM
It was a very compelling episode. Particularly the old guy that showed you how you could get the foreskin back if you want it.
Kier couldn&#39;t sit through the whole thing. He was closing his eyes like it was a scary movie or something. :lol:

[ShaliHead]

Originally posted by Thunder@Jun 7 2006, 02:52 PM
:unsure:
You didn&#39;t really want to be in here anyway. :oops: Sorry :(

[Diana]

God told the Isrealites to circumcise their sons to set them apart from other nations. They were God&#39;s chosen ones and therefore should be "cleansed". (As I am sure you can imagine back then "things" were probably not as clean as they are now) If I remember correctly they waited until their sons were older, I don&#39;t exactly remember how old, I wanna say 5, but anyway, old enough to remember it.

I circumcised my son b/c I dated a boy in high school who apparently was uncircumcised and they boys used to say nasty things to him and I about it...in a joking manner, but still pretty embarrassing.

Female circumcision is ALTOGETHER another subject, it really is mutilation and a form of control. It is done to take away sexual pleasure from women because they are considered inferior. NOT even compareable.

[Hoochiemomma]

There&#39;s a documentary out there about a guy who was so traumatized by the loss of his foreskin that he has re-created it by hanging successively heavier weights off the end of his dude to stretch the skin... :rolleyes:

[Erik]

Originally posted by Hoochiemomma@Jun 7 2006, 05:09 PM
There&#39;s a documentary out there about a guy who was so traumatized by the loss of his foreskin that he has re-created it by hanging successively heavier weights off the end of his dude to stretch the skin... :rolleyes:
:eek:

Must. Stay. Out.

This is like a car accident you can&#39;t take your eyes off of.

[liberty]

Originally posted by Thunder@Jun 7 2006, 04:21 PM
:eek:

Must. Stay. Out.

This is like a car accident you can&#39;t take your eyes off of.
I read your opinion on yours but wonder really if you can have an unbiased opinion? I guess there&#39;s no way to say which is better cause if you&#39;ve been circ&#39;d you wouldn&#39;t know any dif and if you have not you wouldn&#39;t know what it was like to have it done. Be proud of what you&#39;ve got I guess????
C

[Erik]

Originally posted by liberty+Jun 7 2006, 05:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (liberty @ Jun 7 2006, 05:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Thunder@Jun 7 2006, 04:21 PM
:eek:

Must. Stay. Out.

This is like a car accident you can&#39;t take your eyes off of.
I read your opinion on yours but wonder really if you can have an unbiased opinion? I guess there&#39;s no way to say which is better cause if you&#39;ve been circ&#39;d you wouldn&#39;t know any dif and if you have not you wouldn&#39;t know what it was like to have it done. Be proud of what you&#39;ve got I guess????
C [/b][/quote]
Indeed true.

Aesthetically I know I prefer circumsized over uncircumsized but that&#39;s just me. And given I didn&#39;t make that call for myself, I&#39;m glad my parents made the right call. :lol:

Quit drawing me back in here. :thunder:

[Hoochiemomma]

Originally posted by Thunder@Jun 7 2006, 02:21 PM
:eek:

Must. Stay. Out.

This is like a car accident you can&#39;t take your eyes off of.
LOL - maybe this should be in the training section? :lol:

[sparkygirl]

Originally posted by Hoochiemomma@Jun 7 2006, 04:09 PM
There&#39;s a documentary out there about a guy who was so traumatized by the loss of his foreskin that he has re-created it by hanging successively heavier weights off the end of his dude to stretch the skin... :rolleyes:
:blink:

[Leah]

Originally posted by Thunder+Jun 7 2006, 02:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Thunder @ Jun 7 2006, 02:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by fitnesschick@Jun 7 2006, 01:13 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-Thunder@Jun 7 2006, 04:43 PM
Must. Stay. Out. :thunder:

I was circumcized (perhaps TMI for you guys, sorry), but I&#39;m extremely glad that my parents went this route.
out of curiosity, why?
For me personally? Aesthetic reasons. :lol: I don&#39;t like the ant eater look. [/b][/quote]
Me either :sad:

[Brandi]

:funny:

[Leah]

Originally posted by Brandi@Jun 7 2006, 06:37 PM
:funny:
are you laughing at me? :unsure:

btw...how does it interfere w/ breastfeeding? :unsure: :blink:

[liberty]

Originally posted by Leah@Jun 7 2006, 05:40 PM
are you laughing at me? :unsure:

btw...how does it interfere w/ breastfeeding? :unsure: :blink:
I am not sure if this was already answered but there is a pain/shock response that occurs after circs that can make it hard to nurse the baby. Our hospital will not do them until the child is well over a month old. Plus any medications you use for pain can also make for a droopy hard to feed baby, sometimes their blood sugar drops and they have to be bottled and then that interferes with BF. I think most canadian hospitals make you wait now and my son does not look like an ant-eater what kinda freak peens you been looking at? :lol:
C

[fitnesschick]

Originally posted by Leah@Jun 7 2006, 10:40 PM
are you laughing at me? :unsure:

btw...how does it interfere w/ breastfeeding? :unsure: :blink:
i&#39;ll just post an excerpt from one of the links. the sources and studies are posted on the sites.

http://www.cirp.org/library/birth/
http://www.nocirc.org/statements/breastfeeding.php

"Authorities agree that male circumcision is a painful and distressing event for a baby. Infants have fully functioning pain sensors at birth,2 and the pain of the surgery is severe and longlasting.3

The AAP Policy Statement on Breastfeeding documents numerous significant benefits of breastfeeding for both mother and baby. Breastfeeding is encouraged.

It has been established in numerous studies that circumcision causes changes in infant brain function and behavior. Marshall el al. (1982)1 and Howard et al (1994)5 have studied the effect of the pain, stress, and trauma, of male neonatal circumcision upon subsequent feeding behavior. They each found that male circumcision disrupts feeding behavior. Sometimes the infant is returned to the mother in an exhausted and debilitated state in which he is unable to manage the task of latching-on and feeding.5

Breastfeeding provides many health and developmental benefits to the infant, so clearly breastfeeding failure should be avoided. Traumatic and stressful events in infancy interfere with breastfeeding success. The AAP Policy statement on breastfeeding states that traumatic procedures should be avoided lest they interfere with breastfeeding initiation."

[Brandi]

Originally posted by Leah@Jun 7 2006, 03:40 PM
are you laughing at me? :unsure:

No, the ant eater thing. And the use of that blue smiley.

:lol:

I agree with all that.

[3sweeties]

Ds nursed right after he was circ&#39;d. He didn&#39;t even cry. I think people over dramatize the whole procedure.

[Tina]

Originally posted by 3sweeties@Jun 7 2006, 07:25 PM
Ds nursed right after he was circ&#39;d. He didn&#39;t even cry. I think people over dramatize the whole procedure.
Sounds like it to me.

[homeschoolmom]

Originally posted by 3sweeties@Jun 7 2006, 07:25 PM
Ds nursed right after he was circ&#39;d. He didn&#39;t even cry. I think people over dramatize the whole procedure.
I think I cried more than my boys did&#33; :lol:

[liberty]

Originally posted by homeschoolmom@Jun 7 2006, 06:48 PM
I think I cried more than my boys did&#33; :lol:
crying is not always a typical pain response in newborns, shutting down is. I don&#39;t think people are making a big deal I think they just want to make sure people think hard about a cosmetic procedure and are informed. It has been studied to impact BFing and just becasue it did not effect your child does not mean it is not true or should not be a factor to consider. Just like fitness one persons experience does not always win over facts.
-with respect
C

[Miker]

Originally posted by Diana@Jun 7 2006, 05:06 PM
God told the Isrealites to circumcise their sons to set them apart from other nations. They were God&#39;s chosen ones and therefore should be "cleansed".

Female circumcision is ALTOGETHER another subject, it really is mutilation and a form of control. It is done to take away sexual pleasure from women because they are considered inferior. NOT even compareable.
I find it curious that such a loving God would promote the mutilation of his followers... hey.. wait a sec.. if there was a God.. how come he didn&#39;t just make his chosen ones born without foreskins....?

and no.. female circumcision is totally comparable. You are trying to compare reasons... I am comparing mutilation. There is NO reason legitimate enough to make a decision to mangle your child... religion, looks, hygiene, etc. NOTHING is reasonable enough to make chopping off a piece of his cock without his permission...a legitimate action.

[Diana]

Originally posted by Miker+Jun 8 2006, 12:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Miker @ Jun 8 2006, 12:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Diana@Jun 7 2006, 05:06 PM
God told the Isrealites to circumcise their sons to set them apart from other nations. They were God&#39;s chosen ones and therefore should be "cleansed".

Female circumcision is ALTOGETHER another subject, it really is mutilation and a form of control. It is done to take away sexual pleasure from women because they are considered inferior. NOT even compareable.
I find it curious that such a loving God would promote the mutilation of his followers... hey.. wait a sec.. if there was a God.. how come he didn&#39;t just make his chosen ones born without foreskins....?

and no.. female circumcision is totally comparable. You are trying to compare reasons... I am comparing mutilation. There is NO reason legitimate enough to make a decision to mangle your child... religion, looks, hygiene, etc. NOTHING is reasonable enough to make chopping off a piece of his cock without his permission...a legitimate action. [/b][/quote]
ok :blink:

[fitnesschick]

Originally posted by Diana+Jun 8 2006, 12:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Diana @ Jun 8 2006, 12:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by Miker@Jun 8 2006, 12:36 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-Diana@Jun 7 2006, 05:06 PM
God told the Isrealites to circumcise their sons to set them apart from other nations.* They were God&#39;s chosen ones and therefore should be "cleansed".

Female circumcision is ALTOGETHER another subject, it really is mutilation and a form of control.* It is done to take away sexual pleasure from women because they are considered inferior. NOT even compareable.
I find it curious that such a loving God would promote the mutilation of his followers... hey.. wait a sec.. if there was a God.. how come he didn&#39;t just make his chosen ones born without foreskins....?

and no.. female circumcision is totally comparable. You are trying to compare reasons... I am comparing mutilation. There is NO reason legitimate enough to make a decision to mangle your child... religion, looks, hygiene, etc. NOTHING is reasonable enough to make chopping off a piece of his cock without his permission...a legitimate action.
ok :blink: [/b][/quote]
circumcision was introduced to english speaking countries as a way to get men to stop masturbating, so you can argue it was used to prevent sexual pleasure. not only which, the foreskin is very sensitive and does provide sexual pleasure.

i am not a biblical scholar but i cannot understand either why God would create men with a foreskin and then want it chopped off.

[GqArtguy]

A few things:

*I dont think circumscision is mutilation nor do I think that its as risky as people make it seem to be.

*On the other hand, barring religious convictions, I still havent heard any other reasoning from the women here behind it except "wanting to look like dad."

* As far as the permission thing, I didnt give my mother permission to do a lot of things when I was under her care, but thats what made her a mother.

*There may be some medical or logical evidence that suggest uncut men have more pleasure due to staying in tact, but you wont ever find men complaining because those who are cut cant do much about it, and I dont know many men who would willingly allow someone to cut part of his cock.

*If a girl is turned off the moment she opens my pants and finds that Im uncut, well then it wasnt meant to be. I do wonder how they would feel if the situation were reversed and someone rejected having sex with them because their labia werent oriented in a way that they liked.

*Unlike Thunder, if a girl finds my cock cute, then rock on. :cool:

[Erik]

:thunder:

[Miker]

Originally posted by GqArtguy@Jun 7 2006, 10:06 PM
A few things:

*I dont think circumscision is mutilation nor do I think that its as risky as people make it seem to be.

*On the other hand, barring religious convictions, I still havent heard any other reasoning from the women here behind it except "wanting to look like dad."

* As far as the permission thing, I didnt give my mother permission to do a lot of things when I was under her care, but thats what made her a mother.

*There may be some medical or logical evidence that suggest uncut men have more pleasure due to staying in tact, but you wont ever find men complaining because those who are cut cant do much about it, and I dont know many men who would willingly allow someone to cut part of his cock.

*If a girl is turned off the moment she opens my pants and finds that Im uncut, well then it wasnt meant to be. I do wonder how they would feel if the situation were reversed and someone rejected having sex with them because their labia werent oriented in a way that they liked.

*Unlike Thunder, if a girl finds my cock cute, then rock on. :cool:
* If I chop off the tip of your finger... that&#39;s mutilation.. how is chopping off the end of your foreskin different?

* What made my mother.. my mother was her getting impregnated by my father. Her choosing to have me circumcised was an error in judgement based on the ignorance of the times. I don&#39;t feel anything bad about her doing it.. but she admits today that had she known then what she knows now.. I&#39;d have a foreskin.

* If a girl is turned off by the look of my circumcised cock or prefers one uncircumcised... fuck it... I might like having a runway to land on instead of a grown woman as smooth as a 10 year old. Big deal..

[Dane]

:lol: Mike&#33;

Incidentally...... a flaccid uncircumcised penis is just as unappetizing (to me) as a flaccid circumcised one. Now, when they&#39;re rock hard and ready for action (therefore, uhm, "appetizing"), I defy you to be able to tell one from the other. :innocent:

[cm13cm]

i think that if my husband and i ever have a boy that this will be a sticking point for us. i wouldn&#39;t want to get our son circumsized, he would. i think iwould have to insist though

[GqArtguy]

Originally posted by Miker@Jun 7 2006, 10:48 PM
* If I chop off the tip of your finger... that&#39;s mutilation.. how is chopping off the end of your foreskin different?

* What made my mother.. my mother was her getting impregnated by my father. Her choosing to have me circumcised was an error in judgement based on the ignorance of the times. I don&#39;t feel anything bad about her doing it.. but she admits today that had she known then what she knows now.. I&#39;d have a foreskin.

* If a girl is turned off by the look of my circumcised cock or prefers one uncircumcised... fuck it... I might like having a runway to land on instead of a grown woman as smooth as a 10 year old. Big deal..
*Because its not as extreme as chopping off your finger, and in some cases its medically necessary to do so.

* Thats your opinion. There are a lot of fools who can make babies, but there are fewer good people that can be good parents. If you want to trvialize the nuturing that your parent gives you and think solely on biological terms, than thats your sad perogative.

[trigirl]

Originally posted by Tina@Jun 7 2006, 06:31 PM
Sounds like it to me.
AGreee -- I never had any prbs nursing post-circ either...nursed him right away. Too many "foreskin extremists" on the board :)

[trigirl]

Originally posted by liberty@Jun 7 2006, 07:10 PM
crying is not always a typical pain response in newborns, shutting down is. I don&#39;t think people are making a big deal I think they just want to make sure people think hard about a cosmetic procedure and are informed. It has been studied to impact BFing and just becasue it did not effect your child does not mean it is not true or should not be a factor to consider. Just like fitness one persons experience does not always win over facts.
-with respect
C
Unfortunately, the "facts" that you present are completely biased to support your own decision. I don&#39;t understand why this has become such a public debate. A forum such as this is obviously not the place to get factual, unbiased information. And, I&#39;m sure whoever started this post was leaning towards one side or the other (how could you not, based on the responses here), and just looking for confirmation to support their decision.

[trigirl]

Originally posted by Thunder@Jun 7 2006, 09:23 PM
:thunder:
Yes&#33; Please&#33; Make it all go away&#33;&#33; :)

[Miker]

Originally posted by GqArtguy@Jun 8 2006, 11:26 AM

*Because its not as extreme as chopping off your finger, and in some cases its medically necessary to do so.


How is it not as extreme? How many cases of circumcision are due to medical neccessity? Phimosis is the leading medical cause of circumcision and that happens in less than 4% of males. There used to be a belief that circumcision added to the incidence of Penile cancer as well as Cervical cancer.. that has been proven wrong and even the American Cancer Society has come down on the side of not-circumcizing as there is no statistical proof that being uncircumcised will add to the risk of any cancer whatsoever.

Medical necessity... maybe to those who still believe in the medical knowledge of pre 1970.

[homeschoolmom]

Originally posted by liberty@Jun 7 2006, 08:10 PM
crying is not always a typical pain response in newborns, shutting down is. I don&#39;t think people are making a big deal I think they just want to make sure people think hard about a cosmetic procedure and are informed. It has been studied to impact BFing and just becasue it did not effect your child does not mean it is not true or should not be a factor to consider. Just like fitness one persons experience does not always win over facts.
-with respect
C
Hey Liberty, no disrespect taken&#33; I agree with you actually. As I had stated in an earlier post, I wish I hadn&#39;t had my boys done. And considering that breastfeeding my kids was quite the challenge, it very may well have been a factor. Do you know who did the study correlating difficulties breastfeeding and circumcision? I&#39;d like to read more on the subject.

This is obviously a hot topic with varied beliefs and opinions. I suspect the OP is going to have a difficult time with this decision and I encourage her to educate herself as much as possible. There is a lot of emotion reflected in the opinions on this board, so I suggest she and her DH take their time, do the research and get the facts before making any decisions. Good luck&#33; :)

[trigirl]

Originally posted by Miker+Jun 8 2006, 10:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Miker @ Jun 8 2006, 10:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-GqArtguy@Jun 8 2006, 11:26 AM

*Because its not as extreme as chopping off your finger, and in some cases its medically necessary to do so.


How is it not as extreme? How many cases of circumcision are due to medical neccessity? Phimosis is the leading medical cause of circumcision and that happens in less than 4% of males. There used to be a belief that circumcision added to the incidence of Penile cancer as well as Cervical cancer.. that has been proven wrong and even the American Cancer Society has come down on the side of not-circumcizing as there is no statistical proof that being uncircumcised will add to the risk of any cancer whatsoever.

Medical necessity... maybe to those who still believe in the medical knowledge of pre 1970. [/b][/quote]
Post-1970. THere are others. I can understand both sides of the debate.

Micali, Giuseppe. Nasca, Maria R. Innocenzi, Daniele. Schwartz, Robert A.

Institution Department of Dermatology, University of Catania School of Medicine, Catania, Italy. cldermct@nti.it

Title Penile cancer. [Review] [365 refs]

Source Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology. 54(3):369-91; quiz 391-4, 2006 Mar.



Abstract
Penile cancer, while relatively rare in the western world, remains a disease with severe morbidity and mortality, not to mention significant psychological ramifications. Furthermore, the disease is observed with dramatically increased incidence in other parts of the world. A review of the literature has shown that the overwhelming majority of penile cancers are in situ or invasive squamous cell carcinomas, including a well-differentiated variant, verrucous carcinoma. Important predisposing factors are lack of circumcision, human papillomavirus infections, and penile lichen sclerosus, although other factors have occasionally been reported as well. Prevention, careful monitoring of patients at risk, and early diagnosis are essential to reduce the incidence of penile carcinoma and to provide a definitive cure. Public health measures, such as prophylactic use of circumcision, have proved successful but are controversial. Also, no standard therapeutic guidelines as to the best treatment strategy according to different stages, including efficacy of conservative nonsurgical modalities and indications for lymph nodal dissection, are available so far. It is common opinion that penile cancer is an emerging problem that deserves further investigations, and physicians, especially dermatologists, should be aware of this issue. LEARNING OBJECTIVE: At the completion of this learning activity, participants should be familiar with penile carcinoma, its risk factors, its clinical and histologic presentation, and the treatments currently available for its management. [References: 365]

Publication Type Journal Article. Review.

[fitnesschick]

Originally posted by trigirl+Jun 8 2006, 03:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (trigirl @ Jun 8 2006, 03:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-liberty@Jun 7 2006, 07:10 PM
crying is not always a typical pain response in newborns, shutting down is. I don&#39;t think people are making a big deal I think they just want to make sure people think hard about a cosmetic procedure and are informed. It has been studied to impact BFing and just becasue it did not effect your child does not mean it is not true or should not be a factor to consider. Just like fitness one persons experience does not always win over facts.
-with respect
C
Unfortunately, the "facts" that you present are completely biased to support your own decision. I don&#39;t understand why this has become such a public debate. A forum such as this is obviously not the place to get factual, unbiased information. And, I&#39;m sure whoever started this post was leaning towards one side or the other (how could you not, based on the responses here), and just looking for confirmation to support their decision. [/b][/quote]
how are these not facts? how are they biased?
:blink:

[fitnesschick]

Originally posted by homeschoolmom+Jun 8 2006, 04:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (homeschoolmom @ Jun 8 2006, 04:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-liberty@Jun 7 2006, 08:10 PM
crying is not always a typical pain response in newborns, shutting down is. I don&#39;t think people are making a big deal I think they just want to make sure people think hard about a cosmetic procedure and are informed. It has been studied to impact BFing and just becasue it did not effect your child does not mean it is not true or should not be a factor to consider. Just like fitness one persons experience does not always win over facts.
-with respect
C
Hey Liberty, no disrespect taken&#33; I agree with you actually. As I had stated in an earlier post, I wish I hadn&#39;t had my boys done. And considering that breastfeeding my kids was quite the challenge, it very may well have been a factor. Do you know who did the study correlating difficulties breastfeeding and circumcision? I&#39;d like to read more on the subject.

This is obviously a hot topic with varied beliefs and opinions. I suspect the OP is going to have a difficult time with this decision and I encourage her to educate herself as much as possible. There is a lot of emotion reflected in the opinions on this board, so I suggest she and her DH take their time, do the research and get the facts before making any decisions. Good luck&#33; :) [/b][/quote]
take a look at my post just after her post on breastfeeding. if you click the links the studies are there. :)

[homeschoolmom]

Originally posted by fitnesschick@Jun 8 2006, 12:12 PM
take a look at my post just after her post on breastfeeding. if you click the links the studies are there. :)
Now how did I miss that?&#33; Thanks&#33;

[Miker]

Originally posted by trigirl@Jun 8 2006, 12:09 PM
Post-1970. THere are others. I can understand both sides of the debate.

Micali, Giuseppe. Nasca, Maria R. Innocenzi, Daniele. Schwartz, Robert A.

Institution Department of Dermatology, University of Catania School of Medicine, Catania, Italy. cldermct@nti.it

Title Penile cancer. [Review] [365 refs]

Source Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology. 54(3):369-91; quiz 391-4, 2006 Mar.



Abstract
Penile cancer, while relatively rare in the western world, remains a disease with severe morbidity and mortality, not to mention significant psychological ramifications. Furthermore, the disease is observed with dramatically increased incidence in other parts of the world. A review of the literature has shown that the overwhelming majority of penile cancers are in situ or invasive squamous cell carcinomas, including a well-differentiated variant, verrucous carcinoma. Important predisposing factors are lack of circumcision, human papillomavirus infections, and penile lichen sclerosus, although other factors have occasionally been reported as well. Prevention, careful monitoring of patients at risk, and early diagnosis are essential to reduce the incidence of penile carcinoma and to provide a definitive cure. Public health measures, such as prophylactic use of circumcision, have proved successful but are controversial. Also, no standard therapeutic guidelines as to the best treatment strategy according to different stages, including efficacy of conservative nonsurgical modalities and indications for lymph nodal dissection, are available so far. It is common opinion that penile cancer is an emerging problem that deserves further investigations, and physicians, especially dermatologists, should be aware of this issue. LEARNING OBJECTIVE: At the completion of this learning activity, participants should be familiar with penile carcinoma, its risk factors, its clinical and histologic presentation, and the treatments currently available for its management. [References: 365]

Publication Type Journal Article. Review.
THE JOURNAL OF FAMILY PRACTICE, Volume 44, Number 4: Pages 407-409,
April 1997.


Brief Report:
Carcinoma in Situ of the Penis in a 76-Year-Old Circumcised Man
Christopher J. Cold, MD; Michelle R. Storms, MD; and Robert S. Van Howe, MD
Minoqua, Wisconsin

The commonly believed notion that circumcised men cannot develop penile cancer can result in delays in diagnosis. Recent medical literature has failed to confirm the protective effect of circumcision on penile neoplasms. Physicians need to be aware that men circumcised after 1 month of age may be at higher risk for penile cancer than those never circumcised.

Key Words. Penile neoplasms; circumcision; Bowen&#39;s disease.
(J Fam Pract 1997; 44:407-410.)

A commonly held misperception in modern medicine is that circumcised men cannot develop neoplasms of the penis.1 This misperception can be traced to a single 1932 article by Wolbarst,2 a procircumcision advocate who also proclaimed circumcision as the cure for everything from masturbation to epilepsy to infant death.3 This often cited paper based its conclusion on gathered reports of penile cancer from hospitals. No attempt was made to confirm circumcision status, and no control group was employed. None of the cases of penile cancer occurred in Jewish men circumcised at birth, prompting Wolbarst to conclude that circumcision prevented penile cancer. Until recently this conclusion has not been properly studied or challenged. As circumcision gained popularity early in this century, the number of circumcised men reaching the age when penile cancer becomes apparent is rapidly increasing. Concomitantly, the number of circumcised men with penile cancer is already beginning to increase

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Volley.....

[BronzedGoddess]

I&#39;m not going to get into a debate just stating that both my sons are circumcised. And I would do it again.

[BronzedGoddess]

Originally posted by Leah+Jun 7 2006, 05:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Leah @ Jun 7 2006, 05:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by Thunder@Jun 7 2006, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by fitnesschick@Jun 7 2006, 01:13 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-Thunder@Jun 7 2006, 04:43 PM
Must. Stay. Out. :thunder:

I was circumcized (perhaps TMI for you guys, sorry), but I&#39;m extremely glad that my parents went this route.
out of curiosity, why?
For me personally? Aesthetic reasons. :lol: I don&#39;t like the ant eater look.
Me either :sad: [/b][/quote]
I&#39;m with y&#39;all.

[Hoochiemomma]

Originally posted by BronzedGoddess@Jun 8 2006, 10:33 AM
I&#39;m not going to get into a debate just stating that both my sons are circumcised. And I would do it again.
Well there&#39;s no need to do it twice... JK

[3sweeties]

Source Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology. 54(3):369-91; quiz 391-4, 2006 Mar.

Abstract
Penile cancer, while relatively rare in the western world, remains a disease with severe morbidity and mortality, not to mention significant psychological ramifications. Furthermore, the disease is observed with dramatically increased incidence in other parts of the world. A review of the literature has shown that the overwhelming majority of penile cancers are in situ or invasive squamous cell carcinomas, including a well-differentiated variant, verrucous carcinoma. Important predisposing factors are lack of circumcision, human papillomavirus infections, and penile lichen sclerosus, although other factors have occasionally been reported as well. Prevention, careful monitoring of patients at risk, and early diagnosis are essential to reduce the incidence of penile carcinoma and to provide a definitive cure. Public health measures, such as prophylactic use of circumcision, have proved successful but are controversial. Also, no standard therapeutic guidelines as to the best treatment strategy according to different stages, including efficacy of conservative nonsurgical modalities and indications for lymph nodal dissection, are available so far. It is common opinion that penile cancer is an emerging problem that deserves further investigations, and physicians, especially dermatologists, should be aware of this issue. LEARNING OBJECTIVE: At the completion of this learning activity, participants should be familiar with penile carcinoma, its risk factors, its clinical and histologic presentation, and the treatments currently available for its management. [References: 365]

That is interesting.

[fitnesschick]

penile cancer occurs very rarely in both circumcised and uncircumsized men. it does not seem a valid reason to cut off the foreskin when you don&#39;t know who will or won&#39;t get cancer of the penis, nor is there a guarantee it will prevent the cancer anyway.

[PerfectAnjail]

Well, as the OP, I knew that circumcision can be a very hot topic with people, if for religious reasons or otherwise. Yes, whomever said I was probably leaning one way or another before posting was correct. I am leaning towards not doing it.

As another stated, I have seen little reason, besides "to look like daddy" to actually go through with it. I see the abstract that was posted, but have a hard time believing that an external piece of skin could somehow cause cancer (which has to do with abnormal cell growth, if I&#39;m not mistaken...well, to over simplify things anyway) However, I guess other studies have shown the HPV can lead to cervical cancer, so maybe it&#39;s easier to catch HPV with extra foreskin? Hm...dunno.

I do feel, however, that if my son grows up and reads information for himself and decides to have it done later in life, then I will support him in doing that. However, if I choose to do it while he is a newborn and hes ask later, mommy, why did you cut part of my pee-pee off, I really don&#39;t think I&#39;ll have a good answer for him, and I obviously can take it back.

This is obviously someting I still need to discuss with my SO, but thanks everyone for the opinions/facts/etc on the subject.

[fitnesschick]

I did not have my son done, and at the age of 6, have had no problems. I felt that there is no medical reason to have it done and as far as I am concerned to prevent problems later is ridiculous. I am not about to cut off my arm just in case of injury later&#33; (fitnesschicks sister( I am the "better" sister&#33;)

[ShaliHead]

It&#39;s like getting your breasts removed because you might get breast cancer. Silly and unnecessary.

[fitnesschick]

Not to mention the fact that as a woman, having been with both a cut and uncut man, uncut is preferrable. ( the better sister)

[GqArtguy]

Originally posted by Miker@Jun 8 2006, 10:45 AM
How is it not as extreme?


Because cutting the foreskin doesnt majorly inhibit function. Maybe it decreases sensitivity, but youre still able to do everything youre supposed to do. If you cut off a finger, say the thumb, then your hand mechanics will be subpar to a full hand.


How many cases of circumcision are due to medical neccessity?

I dont know and dont really care. If its medically necessary, then do it.


Phimosis is the leading medical cause of circumcision and that happens in less than 4% of males.

So?


There used to be a belief that circumcision added to the incidence of Penile cancer as well as Cervical cancer.. that has been proven wrong and even the American Cancer Society has come down on the side of not-circumcizing as there is no statistical proof that being uncircumcised will add to the risk of any cancer whatsoever.Medical necessity... maybe to those who still believe in the medical knowledge of pre 1970.

Thanks for the knowledge tip, but I dont care what the beliefs are. All Im saying is if theres a valid medical reason to do it, then do it.

[Miker]

Originally posted by GqArtguy+Jun 8 2006, 05:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (GqArtguy @ Jun 8 2006, 05:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Miker@Jun 8 2006, 10:45 AM
How is it not as extreme?


Because cutting the foreskin doesnt majorly inhibit function. Maybe it decreases sensitivity, but youre still able to do everything youre supposed to do. If you cut off a finger, say the thumb, then your hand mechanics will be subpar to a full hand.



I dont know and dont really care. If its medically necessary, then do it.



So?



Thanks for the knowledge tip, but I dont care what the beliefs are. All Im saying is if theres a valid medical reason to do it, then do it. [/b][/quote]
I said the tip of your finger.. thus creating an equivalent comparison.

You said it is medically necessary to do so in some cases... I stated that in less than 4% of all men might it be medically necessary.. your answer &#39;so&#39; shows how much you think before you spout. One doesn&#39;t chop off one&#39;s breasts because one might get breast cancer and the incidence of breast cancer beats penile cancer. Stupid reasoning. Circumcision upon diagnosis of phimosis (usually around age 6-8) is legit.

And.. if you don&#39;t really care about a subject.. then why post? or do you just like to see your name on the screen?

[Erik]

Hey Miker, you seem to be in a bad mood lately. :lol:

[liberty]

Originally posted by trigirl+Jun 8 2006, 10:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (trigirl @ Jun 8 2006, 10:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-liberty@Jun 7 2006, 07:10 PM
crying is not always a typical pain response in newborns, shutting down is. I don&#39;t think people are making a big deal I think they just want to make sure people think hard about a cosmetic procedure and are informed. It has been studied to impact BFing and just becasue it did not effect your child does not mean it is not true or should not be a factor to consider. Just like fitness one persons experience does not always win over facts.
-with respect
C
Unfortunately, the "facts" that you present are completely biased to support your own decision. I don&#39;t understand why this has become such a public debate. A forum such as this is obviously not the place to get factual, unbiased information. And, I&#39;m sure whoever started this post was leaning towards one side or the other (how could you not, based on the responses here), and just looking for confirmation to support their decision. [/b][/quote]
Actually the facts I present were the ones I researched for our hospitals info package on circs when I worked on the obstetric floor. They did not ask me for only the anti-circ info they wanted a thourough research of all the facts and I only posted the facts I found. Yes, I did not get my kid cut and I have my opinions but I don&#39;t think my hospital woulda let me go off on some whack-job tangent based on my opinion, it was all science :) Really though I don&#39;t care what other people do I think we make so many choices as parents that this is just one of them. I have friends who circ&#39;d their kids and some who have not, I would never chastise those who make the decision but I will be the queen o&#39; information for those making the decision. Decisions with all the real facts=good decision&#33;(whatever the decsion is)
C

[Miker]

Originally posted by Thunder@Jun 8 2006, 06:17 PM
Hey Miker, you seem to be in a bad mood lately. :lol:
Yeah... I suppose you are right... bad couple days at work... lol

perhaps a nice cold beer will sort things out. :lol:

[sweetie]

This is such an interesting topic. We struggled for a long time before even getting pregnant to decide what to do if we had a boy. I really appreciate the consideration people put into making this decision (I wish parents put half the thought they put into the circ decision into other parenting decisions, but that&#39;s a different issue.) I found it really interesting during our research that there were so many people speaking out against it, but not one of the families I know locally decided to leave their sons intact.

[nikegurl]

i read the whole thread....and not one picture. :( sheesh




kidding. really ;)

[Leah]

Originally posted by fitnesschick@Jun 8 2006, 03:41 PM
Not to mention the fact that as a woman, having been with both a cut and uncut man, uncut is preferrable. ( the better sister)
As a woman, having been w/ both a cut and uncut, cut is preferrable :p

[Brandi]

Never been with uncut... :unsure:

[Erik]

Ant eater&#33; :thunder:

[Brandi]

:lol: That is why.


It skeers me...




Edited because I can&#39;t spell.

[Inspired]

Originally posted by Brandi@Jun 8 2006, 09:35 PM
Never been with uncut... :unsure:
I&#39;ve never even seen one..... :unsure:

[GqArtguy]

Originally posted by Miker+Jun 8 2006, 05:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Miker @ Jun 8 2006, 05:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by GqArtguy@Jun 8 2006, 05:44 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-Miker@Jun 8 2006, 10:45 AM
How is it not as extreme?


Because cutting the foreskin doesnt majorly inhibit function. Maybe it decreases sensitivity, but youre still able to do everything youre supposed to do. If you cut off a finger, say the thumb, then your hand mechanics will be subpar to a full hand.



I dont know and dont really care. If its medically necessary, then do it.



So?



Thanks for the knowledge tip, but I dont care what the beliefs are. All Im saying is if theres a valid medical reason to do it, then do it.
I said the tip of your finger.. thus creating an equivalent comparison.

You said it is medically necessary to do so in some cases... I stated that in less than 4% of all men might it be medically necessary.. your answer &#39;so&#39; shows how much you think before you spout. One doesn&#39;t chop off one&#39;s breasts because one might get breast cancer and the incidence of breast cancer beats penile cancer. Stupid reasoning. Circumcision upon diagnosis of phimosis (usually around age 6-8) is legit.

And.. if you don&#39;t really care about a subject.. then why post? or do you just like to see your name on the screen? [/b][/quote]
I dont care if the number is less than 4% or 40%. For those 4% it might be necessary so I would say "go for it." If you dont like it, tough.

You can critique the breast cancer argument, its one that I did not make so whatever.

And please tell me where I said I didnt care about the subject. I said I didnt care what previous beliefs were to support it because my stance is that if its medically necessary, then do it, even its 1 person or less than 4% of men that need.

This is my last post to you because if you, in your omniscience, feel the need to put words in my mouth, not read what I posted, and spout off in a pissy manner just to hope that you will convince others, then youre not worth my time.

[Diana]

Originally posted by Leah@Jun 9 2006, 12:56 AM
As a woman, having been w/ both a cut and uncut, cut is preferrable :p
another vote for uncut&#33; :innocent:

[fitnesschick]

i don&#39;t get it ... uncut and cut look exactly the same when they&#39;re hard. i don&#39;t think you can tell the difference. and who cares what it looks like when it&#39;s flaccid ;)

[colo1278]

Originally posted by Miker@Jun 8 2006, 10:16 PM


One doesn&#39;t chop off one&#39;s breasts because one might get breast cancer
Not judging, just chiming in here with something I have read about... there are stories of women out there who got full mastectomies w/o a cancer diagnosis. Some do it because there is a higher incidence in their family, or they have the BRCA-1 gene. (Neither means they will DEFINITELY get it).

[theresak]

Originally posted by liberty+Jun 7 2006, 05:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (liberty @ Jun 7 2006, 05:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Leah@Jun 7 2006, 05:40 PM
are you laughing at me? :unsure:

btw...how does it interfere w/ breastfeeding? :unsure: :blink:
I am not sure if this was already answered but there is a pain/shock response that occurs after circs that can make it hard to nurse the baby. Our hospital will not do them until the child is well over a month old. Plus any medications you use for pain can also make for a droopy hard to feed baby, sometimes their blood sugar drops and they have to be bottled and then that interferes with BF. I think most canadian hospitals make you wait now and my son does not look like an ant-eater what kinda freak peens you been looking at? :lol:
C [/b][/quote]
Both my sons drank heartily after being circumcized, as did all 12 of my circumcized nephews. I don&#39;t dispute medical findings, but that has not been the experience of anyone I know, thankfully. But again, my sons had numbing cream but not any kind of painkillers after that.

[Erik]

Die thread, die&#33;

[Cathou]

Interesting tread&#33;

[Erik]

Originally posted by Cathou@Jun 10 2006, 12:22 AM
Interesting tread&#33;
:thunder:

[liberty]

Originally posted by Thunder@Jun 9 2006, 11:06 PM
Die thread, die&#33;
Count yourself lucky you missed the whole granny-panty thread :lol: I think your name was even mentioned in it :thunder:
C

[taniea19]

I read in the oxygen magazing this month that it decreases your sons chance if contracting AIDS if you have him curcumcised by like 50% or more. I have 3 girls but if I ever have a boy I will have him curcumcised for sure. My best friend has 2 boys she didn&#39;t do it and they have had ALOT if infections from it not getting clean enough. You have to pull back the foreskin and wipe it REALLY good and make sure you pull it back down when you are done. Anyway for me its just better. I have seen both sides ;)

Tanya

[PerfectAnjail]

IT&#39;S ALIVE&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; This thread has come back to life&#33;&#33;

taniea - Since I don&#39;t get the O2 mag anymore, can you tell me exactly where those stats came from? Because it really doesn&#39;t sound like that makes too much sense...more likely to contract AIDS? Hm...I wonder about that statement...

[Erik]

Die thread&#33; Die&#33;

:thunder:

[Brandi]

Originally posted by Thunder@Jun 28 2006, 11:04 AM
Die thread&#33; Die&#33;

:thunder:
:funny:

[ShaliHead]

It is like Nazarus. How could it be?

[Phoenix59]

Originally posted by taniea19@Jun 28 2006, 11:59 AM
I read in the oxygen magazing this month that it decreases your sons chance if contracting AIDS if you have him curcumcised by like 50% or more.

Tanya
Well, Oxygen Magazine&#33; Of course, there&#39;s a reliable source. :sad:

I thought the chances of contracting AIDS was increased with each exchange of bodily fluids with an infected person, not through being uncircumcised. I&#39;ll have to warn my son. :dry:

[PerfectAnjail]

Originally posted by Phoenix59+Jun 28 2006, 02:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Phoenix59 @ Jun 28 2006, 02:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-taniea19@Jun 28 2006, 11:59 AM
I read in the oxygen magazing this month that it decreases your sons chance if contracting AIDS if you have him curcumcised by like 50% or more.

Tanya
Well, Oxygen Magazine&#33; Of course, there&#39;s a reliable source. :sad:

I thought the chances of contracting AIDS was increased with each exchange of bodily fluids with an infected person, not through being uncircumcised. I&#39;ll have to warn my son. :dry: [/b][/quote]
hey&#33; that&#39;s what i thought&#33; guess we were wrong :(

[Phoenix59]

Originally posted by PerfectAnjail@Jun 28 2006, 03:01 PM
hey&#33; that&#39;s what i thought&#33; guess we were wrong :(
It wouldn&#39;t be the first time I was wrong about anything&#33; :lol:

[PerfectAnjail]

Originally posted by Phoenix59@Jun 28 2006, 03:18 PM
It wouldn&#39;t be the first time I was wrong about anything&#33; :lol:
it would for me. i am NEVER wrong&#33;&#33; :p

[Phoenix59]

:lol:

[function]

As a jewish male let me say that i veto circumcision. Every religion has a number of requirements that today just doesn&#39;t make sense if you actually read the whole thing, but cutting of a part of a baby&#39;s junk when its not his choice just doesn&#39;t make sense. When he&#39;s older, if he hates having an ant-eater (in my opinion less appealing visually) he can choose to get cut. When I have a kid, I am going to leave him alone. If he decides he wants the operation later I will pay for it.

[Erik]

Adult circumcision is a thought that causes me great ... I don&#39;t even have the word. Let me just say, it&#39;s not good. :lol:

[Sarah]

Originally posted by Thunder@Jun 28 2006, 06:06 PM
Adult circumcision is a thought that causes me great ... I don&#39;t even have the word. Let me just say, it&#39;s not good. :lol:
wuss :innocent:

[Erik]

Originally posted by kiwi@Jun 28 2006, 08:51 PM
wuss :innocent:
Most definitely. :baby:

[Sarah]

Originally posted by Thunder@Jun 28 2006, 09:13 PM
Most definitely. :baby:
:funny:

[PerfectAnjail]

Apparently, this topic is just so interesting to Thunder that he just can&#39;t stay away&#33;





























Ok...I&#39;ll do it for you... :thunder:

[Chelsinator]

Originally posted by Thunder@Jun 28 2006, 05:06 PM
Adult circumcision is a thought that causes me great ... I don&#39;t even have the word. Let me just say, it&#39;s not good. :lol:
uuuhhhh....yeah....I&#39;m not a guy, but I can only imagine what the hell kind of &#39;discomfort&#39; that would be....

I know a guy who was circumcised at 22 years old....and the stitches tore out :eek: and he said he would rather die than go through that again.