Excessive Protein Intake?

[Ruby]

I just came out of a work sponsored nutrition lunch and learn type seminar, where a locally well known registered dietician PhD talked about various intakes. I went just to see if I learn anything new. One thing she suggested to the group was not to intake protein at high levels due to calcium loss and overworking the kidneys. I've read these comments before in other areas as well. She advocated high carbohydrates, followed by fat, then lastly protein - about 1oz protein for each meal/snack.

I know why we should get a higher intake of protein but when talking to a co-worker, I couldn't really respond about the "excessive protein intake" effects, like the ones listed above.

Any comments as to how true those statements are?

[Erik]

The liver? :blink:

Sounds like she's preaching the Canadian/US food guide/pyramid. RDs generally know nothing about sports nutrition.

[Ruby]

Opps sorry. I meant the kidneys and urea issues.

[Erik]

Originally posted by Ruby@Jun 7 2006, 02:54 PM
Opps sorry. I meant the kidneys and urea issues.
Ok, that there just reinforces she doesn't know what she's talking about. Ask for research support that high protein intake is problemsome for anyone outside of people with preexisting renal issues .... oops, there is none.

Bodybuilders are the kings of excessive (read, unnecessarily high) protein intakes and if it were a problem. this subculture of a community would be riddled with kidney problems. And they're not.

[janey]

Wow.

6oz of protein a day. That's hardcore gheigh. :thunder:

[amyloo]

I think RD's have to promote the USDA food pyramid don't they? Hence, the bogus information.

[Erik]

There isn't even one study supporting that higher protein intakes are a cause for kidney concern in healthy subjects. The research is done on renal patients. Talk about an irresponsible generalization.

[Angelkae]

A PT at my gym was telling hubby that the body can only process so much protein at a time. I think he said 30-35 grams. Is that true?

I was just wondering because hubby mixes his whey (23g) with milk (8g) and carnation instant breakfast (5g) = 36g protein. If he ate anything with that which contained protein, of course the numbers would be even higher. Is it a waste?

[Erik]

Originally posted by Angelkae@Jun 7 2006, 03:23 PM
A PT at my gym was telling hubby that the body can only process so much protein at a time. I think he said 30-35 grams. Is that true?

Also crap.

Where do people get this nonsense? Ask him what happens to the rest of it.

[tanyab]

what does your body do with excess protein?

[ShaliHead]

A guy at GNC told me the same thing about your body only processing so much protein at a time. I just gave him my death glare. He left me alone after that.

[jaleena]

Originally posted by tanyab@Jun 7 2006, 07:41 PM
what does your body do with excess protein?
Expensive carbs. You digest it all just fine, but if it's not needed, the body doesn't have a great protein storage mechanism, so it doesn't really get used for what you're intending. But it digests, you get calories.

Edit: GNC guys can be stupid...one of them argued with me when I went in for creatine. He told me it was for boys, that I was confused and wanted carnitine :funny:

[Vanessa]

Well, I am graduating next semester with a Bachelors in Nutrition Studies. So I am almost an RD.

All I can say is there is a huge difference between what mainstream medicine consideres appropriate and what works for bodybuilding/fitness.

But I have still never heard 1 oz protein per meal...That's silly...

And you can only use a certain amount of protein because you can only use a certain amount of calories at one time. The extra is stored as fat while a small amount may be excreted in urine. You can certainly absorb 40 grams without problems...But a lot of us don't need that much all at once.

VanessaNicole

[Erik]

So what happens if you eat a lot of calories in a short period of time as opposed to fewer calories more frequently?

[jaleena]

The digestion of the meal would be slower, but only to a point...I mean, if I were to have 12oz of chicken breast and some veggies, the digestion wouldn't be slow enough for me to use all of the protein for its intended purpose...a good part of it would just be filling and calories and yummy (provided I didn't have to cook it for myself :p), right?
More fat or carbs would slow things further, but there's still a limit on reasonable usefulness, isn't there?

[GraceGirl]

Originally posted by ShaliHead@Jun 7 2006, 02:44 PM
A guy at GNC told me the same thing about your body only processing so much protein at a time. I just gave him my death glare. He left me alone after that.
:funny: :funny: :funny: :funny:

[Erik]

Originally posted by jaleena@Jun 7 2006, 04:15 PM
The digestion of the meal would be slower, but only to a point...I mean, if I were to have 12oz of chicken breast and some veggies, the digestion wouldn't be slow enough for me to use all of the protein for its intended purpose...a good part of it would just be filling and calories and yummy (provided I didn't have to cook it for myself :p), right?
More fat or carbs would slow things further, but there's still a limit on reasonable usefulness, isn't there?
Yes, bigger meals just digest slower than smaller meals, so the 'meal' is released over a longer period of time. I think the figure is around 5-8 hours or something like that.

[funnyesq]

Originally posted by Thunder@Jun 7 2006, 01:56 PM
Ask for research support that high protein intake is problemsome for anyone outside of people with preexisting renal issues .... oops, there is none.

Bodybuilders are the kings of excessive (read, unnecessarily high) protein intakes and if it were a problem. this subculture of a community would be riddled with kidney problems. And they're not.
I've been wondering about this too.

1. Maybe it's in a sticky somewhere that I don't remember reading or didn't read...but WHAT about the relatively high concentration of protein in the daily diet is soo good....vs say....low glycemic/clean carbs? Balance is one thing, but to advocate 1+ gram of protein per pound of bw? In my case that's about 40% of my daily calories....with another 25-30% being fat...that leaves about 30-35% carbs? Why the preference for protein over low glycemic carbs?

2. Obviously if someone already has kidney or other health issues, it isn't going to be a true test of whether or not a high protein diet is good. That said, isn't it true though (this is what I have read) that high protein does produce a lot of acidity in the body...if you create an unbalance in the acid vs. alkalineess of the body in favor of acid...aren't you creating a situation to deplete the bones of calcium...hence ONE reason to have a more balanced diet of protein and carbs. Now, that said too....one reason the body builder subgroup may NOT have had any problems with this is because of all the weight bearing exercises they do that possibly counter balances the acidic tint to the body...weight bearing exercises helping to build and/or preserve bone. I suppose the real concern is perhaps don't do such a high protein diet if you aren't going to be working out regularly and with high intensity/high weights?????????

[strongchick]

1) Protein is more satiating and has a higher TEF than carbs or fat. Research wise, I believe the optimal intake was around .8 grams/lb or so(?) for muscle building

2) as far as I know, that whole acid/alkalene food issue is pseudoscience.

[jrb1980]

Originally posted by Thunder@Jun 7 2006, 08:10 PM
So what happens if you eat a lot of calories in a short period of time as opposed to fewer calories more frequently?
I know! I know! BUT, I think you are asking Vanessa Ray no?

[jaleena]

About the acidity...what do you think is in your stomach? People can whine about Coke taking paint off of cars all they want, but stomach acid will stomp the piddly phosphoric acid in Coke any day. And given that we know who'll win a Coke vs. steak match, I fail to see problems with protein and acidity. Not like we're advocating a high-Duracel diet ;)

[Angelkae]

Originally posted by Thunder+Jun 7 2006, 02:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Thunder @ Jun 7 2006, 02:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Angelkae@Jun 7 2006, 03:23 PM
A PT at my gym was telling hubby that the body can only process so much protein at a time. I think he said 30-35 grams. Is that true?

Also crap.

Where do people get this nonsense? Ask him what happens to the rest of it. [/b][/quote]
LOL... he made some sort of reference to the "Poop Chute"... lol.

[funnyesq]

Originally posted by strongchick@Jun 7 2006, 03:32 PM
1) Protein is more satiating and has a higher TEF than carbs or fat. Research wise, I believe the optimal intake was around .8 grams/lb or so(?) for muscle building

2) as far as I know, that whole acid/alkalene food issue is pseudoscience.
TEF????? What is that? Thanks.

As for coke....I agree. But stomach acid is part of the overall body balance of acid and alkaline isn&#39;t it? Some people may have more acid than alkaline and thus then prone to osteoporosis and the like. My question, is WHY the preference to protein. Okay..someone said TEF ...and hopefully they will explain what this means because hey, I&#39;m a newbie and I don&#39;t know.

[Angelkae]

Originally posted by janey@Jun 7 2006, 01:57 PM
Wow.

6oz of protein a day. That&#39;s hardcore gheigh. :thunder:
Quite interesting, considering that my 10-month old gets about 18g protein daily from his formula alone... lol...

[jaleena]

TEF= Thermic Effect of Feeding :)

[Angelkae]

Originally posted by funnyesq@Jun 7 2006, 03:58 PM
TEF????? What is that? Thanks.
TEF = Thermal Effect of Food.

The increase in energy expenditure associated with the processes of digestion, absorption and metabolism of food; represents approximately 10% of a person’s total energy expenditure and includes facultative thermogenesis and obligatory thermogenesis; often called diet induced thermogenesis (DIT).

[Erik]

How can there be a question of comparing protein to carbs? They&#39;re two entirely different things. :blink:

There&#39;s plenty of research showing that those who train have greater protein requirements.

[funnyesq]

Originally posted by Thunder@Jun 7 2006, 04:14 PM
How can there be a question of comparing protein to carbs? They&#39;re two entirely different things. :blink:

There&#39;s plenty of research showing that those who train have greater protein requirements.
In my case because I&#39;m a newbie. Although I know there is a difference...it seems that there is this advocacy for higher than whatever might be considered "normal" amounts of protein relative to carbs and fat. If high concentrations of protein do produce a more acidic body chemistry than is optimal, it would make sense, I think, to strive for more "balance" between protein and carbs. You mention that bodybuilders have more demand for protein, but how is that demand really measured? I hear you that bbs do not have to worry about the acid and potential for osteoporosis and the like (I suppose because the weight training offsets the acid destruction of bone) but just how much more of a "protein" demand is placed on the bodybuilder&#39;s body and how is that extra demand measured? Is it just that you can&#39;t get bigger/stronger muscles unless you increase the amount of protein to this degree, i.e. 1+ grms per pound of bw? What about those just wanting to lose fat who while losing that fat are probably only concerned about preserving what muscle they have...same demand for protein as that of a bb?

[janey]

Originally posted by funnyesq+Jun 7 2006, 04:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (funnyesq @ Jun 7 2006, 04:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Thunder@Jun 7 2006, 04:14 PM
How can there be a question of comparing protein to carbs? They&#39;re two entirely different things. :blink:

There&#39;s plenty of research showing that those who train have greater protein requirements.
In my case because I&#39;m a newbie. Although I know there is a difference...it seems that there is this advocacy for higher than whatever might be considered "normal" amounts of protein relative to carbs and fat. If high concentrations of protein do produce a more acidic body chemistry than is optimal, it would make sense, I think, to strive for more "balance" between protein and carbs. You mention that bodybuilders have more demand for protein, but how is that demand really measured? I hear you that bbs do not have to worry about the acid and potential for osteoporosis and the like (I suppose because the weight training offsets the acid destruction of bone) but just how much more of a "protein" demand is placed on the bodybuilder&#39;s body and how is that extra demand measured? Is it just that you can&#39;t get bigger/stronger muscles unless you increase the amount of protein to this degree, i.e. 1+ grms per pound of bw? What about those just wanting to lose fat who while losing that fat are probably only concerned about preserving what muscle they have...same demand for protein as that of a bb? [/b][/quote]
I thought it might be a good time to post an abstract. :cool:

A Reduced Ratio of Dietary Carbohydrate to Protein Improves Body Composition and Blood Lipid Profiles during Weight Loss in Adult Women1,2
Donald K. Layman*,3, Richard A. Boileau,**, Donna J. Erickson*, James E. Painter*,, Harn Shiue, Carl Sather and Demtra D. Christou**

* Department of Food Science and Human Nutrition, Division of Nutritional Sciences and ** Department of Kinesiology, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, Urbana, IL 61801



3To whom correspondence should be addressed. E-mail: d-layman@uiuc.edu.

Claims about the merits or risks of carbohydrate (CHO) vs. protein for weight loss diets are extensive, yet the ideal ratio of dietary carbohydrate to protein for adult health and weight management remains unknown. This study examined the efficacy of two weight loss diets with modified CHO/protein ratios to change body composition and blood lipids in adult women. Women (n = 24; 45 to 56 y old) with body mass indices >26 kg/m2 were assigned to either a CHO Group consuming a diet with a CHO/protein ratio of 3.5 (68 g protein/d) or a Protein Group with a ratio of 1.4 (125 g protein/d). Diets were isoenergetic, providing 7100 kJ/d, and similar amounts of fat (50 g/d). After consuming the diets for 10 wk, the CHO Group lost 6.96 ± 1.36 kg body weight and the Protein Group lost 7.53 ± 1.44 kg. Weight loss in the Protein Group was partitioned to a significantly higher loss of fat/lean (6.3 ± 1.2 g/g) compared with the CHO Group (3.8 ± 0.9). Both groups had significant reductions in serum cholesterol (10%), whereas the Protein Group also had significant reductions in triacylglycerols (TAG) (21%) and the ratio of TAG/HDL cholesterol (23%). Women in the CHO Group had higher insulin responses to meals and postprandial hypoglycemia, whereas women in the Protein Group reported greater satiety. This study demonstrates that increasing the proportion of protein to carbohydrate in the diet of adult women has positive effects on body composition, blood lipids, glucose homeostasis and satiety during weight loss.

[Ruby]

Thanks for the responses. Very informative and interesting read on proteins. It&#39;s hard to distinguish myths and facts out there sometimes. :)

[Vanessa]

Originally posted by Thunder@Jun 7 2006, 03:10 PM
So what happens if you eat a lot of calories in a short period of time as opposed to fewer calories more frequently?
There wouldn&#39;t be much of a difference. If you ate one meal a day, you&#39;d be able to consume considerably more calories because you&#39;d have much more room in the liver and muscles for glycogen storage.

But if you ate large meals at any time without first depleting liver/glycogen stores (the way a five hour fast would), the excess protein would be a waste.

You can&#39;t store protein. So in a large meal which exceeds your energy storage capacity, any protein in excess of what your body actually needs for maintenance and repair is converted to energy and stored in fat cells just like any other extra calories.

VanessaNicole