View Full Version : Strength relative to bodyweight?
BlueTuna
08-10-2006, 10:55 AM
Hoping you guys can settle an argument. I have always maintained that a person's strength is relative to their bodyweight - for example being able to bench 50% of your own bodyweight or whatever.
My friend argues that lifting is easier for short people because they have shorter levers - so because I'm short I don't have to move the barbell as far as she does.
Of course, we're both biased because I'm short and strong and she's tall and weak. :p
Who is right?
Being short typically helps with squat and bench and hurts you on the deadlift.
Like Matt said the lever arguement will change depending on what lift you are doing.
Coefficients are for small people
lol
Jeff Rage
08-10-2006, 12:15 PM
Coefficients are for small people
lol
HEY!!! :yell:
There are so many facotrs other than height, one being limb length. For example, my dimensions give me a short ROM for deads, but a higher ROM for bench.
I think ceofficients is a godo thing to look at.
HEY!!! :yell:
There are so many facotrs other than height, one being limb length. For example, my dimensions give me a short ROM for deads, but a higher ROM for bench.
I think ceofficients is a godo thing to look at.
I know. I was just making teh joke.
I agree coeffients are a good thing to look at. However, after a certain point in strength, who the fuck cares? Big Tim Harold Deadlifted ~900+ lbs at a BW of 400+ lbs... believe it or not there are some fuckwits who had the nerve to criticize his coefficient.
homeschoolmom
08-10-2006, 01:03 PM
Coefficients are for small people
lol
Not to sound stupid here, but what's coefficient mean? I'm sure the meaning is here in the dialogue, but I'm just not getting it.:rolleyes: Dumb it down for me please.
Jared
08-10-2006, 01:05 PM
Coefficients are for small people
lol
Exactly. :clap:
Siff covers this subject mathematically in Supertraining, but it's fairly easy to see. Lets take two guys - one who is 6'2" and 240lbs and the other who is 5'6" and 240lbs. The 6'2" guy has a BMI of 30.8, and the 5'6" guy has a BMI of 38.7. These are completely different structures and amounts of muscle. In fact, to make things even from a BMI perspective, the 6'2" guy would have to weigh 301.5lbs. A tall guy will just never be able to compete fairly on pure relative strength.
Jared
08-10-2006, 01:07 PM
Not to sound stupid here, but what's coefficient mean? I'm sure the meaning is here in the dialogue, but I'm just not getting it.:rolleyes: Dumb it down for me please.
In this context, it is typically weight lifted divided by bodyweight. So if you weigh 200lbs and lift 300lbs in a lift, you are lifting 1.5 times your bodyweight, and the 1.5 is what is being referred to as the coefficient.
Jeff Rage
08-10-2006, 01:32 PM
I agree coeffients are a good thing to look at. However, after a certain point in strength, who the fuck cares? Big Tim Harold Deadlifted ~900+ lbs at a BW of 400+ lbs... believe it or not there are some fuckwits who had the nerve to criticize his coefficient.
I was actually picking on him about that! :D
(I just posted a pic of Tim and me in my journal.)
homeschoolmom
08-10-2006, 01:38 PM
Thanks Jared! I think I get it now. So I'm 4'11" and weigh 100lbs and can bench 85lbs. So the coeffiecint for my bench would be .85. Cool. I kinda like having numbers to guage progress by.
Thanks Jared! I think I get it now. So I'm 4'11" and weigh 100lbs and can bench 85lbs. So the coeffiecint for my bench would be .85. Cool. I kinda like having numbers to guage progress by.
Comparisons to yourself over time is probably the best way to use them.
pavermama
08-10-2006, 02:20 PM
Thanks Jared! I think I get it now. So I'm 4'11" and weigh 100lbs and can bench 85lbs. So the coeffiecint for my bench would be .85. Cool. I kinda like having numbers to guage progress by.
Dang you are a little itty bitty people!!! Nice benching!!!! When I was 108 lbs. I could bench 115 lbs. That was years ago!! Now I am 117 lbs. and can only bench 100 pounds for 2 reps!!:lol: I am 5 foot. Keep up the great work!
BlueTuna
08-10-2006, 04:05 PM
Interesting... so my friend and I are both right.
And nice benching, homeschoolmom :thumb:
Hoping you guys can settle an argument. I have always maintained that a person's strength is relative to their bodyweight - for example being able to bench 50% of your own bodyweight or whatever.
My friend argues that lifting is easier for short people because they have shorter levers - so because I'm short I don't have to move the barbell as far as she does.
Of course, we're both biased because I'm short and strong and she's tall and weak. :p
Who is right?
I had to laugh at this because I've sited the short limbs are stronger mumbo jumbo to my boyfriend. His reply, 'Sounds like an excuse to me'.
Eric Cressey
08-10-2006, 04:33 PM
If you're standing in line at the grocery store next month, check out the October issue of Men's Fitness. I've got a feature article on relative strength in the issue.
while BW and height do play a strong role in strength capacity I dont think its as big as many believe.
If you're standing in line at the grocery store next month, check out the October issue of Men's Fitness. I've got a feature article on relative strength in the issue
now you tell me! I was there at 7am! :sad:
jaleena
08-10-2006, 04:53 PM
Jen, 7am isn't next month :p
Jen, 7am isn't next month :p
OHHHHHHHHHHHH :pimpslap: :lol: OPPSS sweet
Eric Cressey
08-10-2006, 05:10 PM
Jen, 7am isn't next month :p
I was just going to say, that might be a long wait. ;)
smuggie
08-10-2006, 05:19 PM
while BW and height do play a strong role in strength capacity I dont think its as big as many believe.
Speaking as a tall, long-limbed, short-torsoed freak I have to disagree.
I have a hard time building my bench and my squat because of those factors.
Speaking as a tall, long-limbed, short-torsoed freak I have to disagree.
I have a hard time building my bench and my squat because of those factors.
Im opposite- Im tall, long limbed but long torso as well and I dont seem to have a hard time at all. :shrug: when I was OLY lifting strength shot through the roof.
see------------its soooooooo individuel.
I guess training protocols, muscle twitch fiber types, weight, height, etc all factor in.
and we can just read Eric's studies next month! :D
Im opposite- Im tall, long limbed but long torso as well and I dont seem to have a hard time at all. :shrug: when I was OLY lifting strength shot through the roof.
see------------its soooooooo individuel.
I guess training protocols, muscle twitch fiber types, weight, height, etc all factor in.
and we can just read Eric's studies next month! :D
How tall are you, and how much did you weigh when you were at your strongest?
homeschoolmom
08-10-2006, 05:36 PM
Comparisons to yourself over time is probably the best way to use them.
Yep exactly what I was planning to do. Sometimes I can't "see" the difference in my body, but knowing that my weights are going up and now having the coefficient to look at help me feel better even when I can't necessarily see the muscle.
homeschoolmom
08-10-2006, 05:47 PM
Dang you are a little itty bitty people!!! Nice benching!!!! When I was 108 lbs. I could bench 115 lbs. That was years ago!! Now I am 117 lbs. and can only bench 100 pounds for 2 reps!!:lol: I am 5 foot. Keep up the great work!
Aww shucks, thanks. My goal is to get my bench to be what I weigh. I've had some back problems as of late and it's hampered my progress. But I'll get there yet!!:lifter: I think that at our size anything close to 100lbs is awesome!! You're doing great girlfriend!:wave:
smuggie
08-10-2006, 05:49 PM
Im opposite- Im tall, long limbed but long torso as well and I dont seem to have a hard time at all. :shrug: when I was OLY lifting strength shot through the roof.
see------------its soooooooo individuel.
I guess training protocols, muscle twitch fiber types, weight, height, etc all factor in.
and we can just read Eric's studies next month! :D
I remember your log at Rugged. You were very strong.
Having a long torso gives you an advantage over me, even though you're also tall and have long limbs.
Long limbs combined with a short torso make for the worst possible leverages for squatting and benching.
homeschoolmom
08-10-2006, 05:50 PM
Interesting... so my friend and I are both right.
And nice benching, homeschoolmom :thumb:
Thanks! I'm trying. :wave:
I remember your log at Rugged. You were very strong.
Having a long torso gives you an advantage over me, even though you're also tall and have long limbs.
Long limbs combined with a short torso make for the worst possible leverages for squatting and benching.
interesting, I didnt know that in regards to the torso.
ever try those stretch machines? JK!
How tall are you, and how much did you weigh when you were at your strongest?
5 ft 7.. although I used to be 5'8. dont ask! lol
strongest point was low 140's. I began cutting that summer during OLY lifting after full late winter/spring lifting that way, continued to and despite diet type at that period I got to 135 lean and maintained my strength.
interesting, I didnt know that in regards to the torso.
ever try those stretch machines? JK!
5 ft 7.. although I used to be 5'8. dont ask! lol
strongest point was low 140's. I began cutting that summer during OLY lifting after full late winter/spring lifting that way, continued to and despite diet type at that period I got to 135 lean and maintained my strength.
Yeah, just I like suspected...
Yeah, you may be long limbed, but IIRC you were always very lean... thus 140 on a 5'7 frame means you holding a very good amount of muscular bodyweight, which would explain why you were teh strong.
Yeah, just I like suspected...
Yeah, you may be long limbed, but IIRC you were always very lean... thus 140 on a 5'7 frame means you holding a very good amount of muscular bodyweight, which would explain why you were teh strong.
:cheeky:
ok you win! :lol:
smuggie
08-10-2006, 06:24 PM
interesting, I didnt know that in regards to the torso.
Check out these articles by Eric Cressey and Mike Robertson for more info:
Overcoming Lousy Leverages, Part I (http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=739197)
Overcoming Lousy Leverages, Part II (http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=740326)
Jared
08-10-2006, 06:31 PM
Long arms + short torso + scoliosis = deadlifting greatness. Just ask Lamar Gant.
Lamar was also an excellent bencher...due to a wicked arch.
Relative strength is all well and good, but I think what many people fail to realize is that those with a high degree of relative strength possess a decent amount of muscle mass. These individuals are also usually very lean, thus the lower bodyweight.
IIRC, the just of EC's article on the subject of t-mag was to alternate shorter cycles of "bulking" and "cutting" in order to faciliate lean mass gain while keeping bodyfat in check. This helps you keep bodyweight lower as opposed to longer bulking cycles.
smuggie
08-10-2006, 06:47 PM
Long arms + short torso + scoliosis = deadlifting greatness. Just ask Lamar Gant.
Lamar was also an excellent bencher...due to a wicked arch.
Scoliosis?
Jared
08-10-2006, 06:53 PM
Scoliosis?
Lamar Gant had some wicked spinal curvature. There was a great picture of him deadlifting on the Power & Bulk board, but I can't find it currently. His lockout on the deadlift was not above his knees. His torso would just kind of scrunch up when pulling heavy.
smuggie
08-10-2006, 06:56 PM
I still don't get it. Scoliosis is a lateral deviation of the spine. How does that help with pulling? :unsure:
Jared
08-10-2006, 06:58 PM
I still don't get it. Scoliosis is a lateral deviation of the spine. How does that help with pulling? :unsure:
It just provides a much shorter torso, like the following person's image:
http://bms.brown.edu/pedisurg/images/ImageBank/AbdWallDefects/Scoliosis.jpg
Jeff Rage
08-10-2006, 06:58 PM
Eric is Mr. Coefficient!
3.74 for his deadlift
smuggie
08-10-2006, 07:00 PM
It just provides a much shorter torso, like the following person's image:
http://bms.brown.edu/pedisurg/images/ImageBank/AbdWallDefects/Scoliosis.jpg
That's one wicked deviation. :eek:
Check out these articles by Eric Cressey and Mike Robertson for more info:
Overcoming Lousy Leverages, Part I (http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=739197)
Overcoming Lousy Leverages, Part II (http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=740326)
Ok so I read both articles but I'm just wondering it talks about long limbed or long torso's, at 4'11" I wouldn't really say anything on my body is long so not sure if the article is just not meant for me or would I just be considered to have a long torso? I feel like an idiot asking but I'd rather know than be wondering about it all day.
jaleena
08-10-2006, 08:56 PM
Ok so I read both articles but I'm just wondering it talks about long limbed or long torso's, at 4'11" I wouldn't really say anything on my body is long so not sure if the article is just not meant for me or would I just be considered to have a long torso? I feel like an idiot asking but I'd rather know than be wondering about it all day.
It's about proportions...my torso is longer in relation to my limbs, and it does my deadlift no favours. So you could be in the long torso camp, although I don't know as the effect is as dramatic for us as for tall peope :shrug:
It's about proportions...my torso is longer in relation to my limbs, and it does my deadlift no favours. So you could be in the long torso camp, although I don't know as the effect is as dramatic for us as for tall peope :shrug:
Yeah that's kind of what I figured, I guess I've just always thought that I was pretty even between my torso and legs and don't really know what I would consider my long bodypart.
jaleena
08-10-2006, 09:09 PM
Then you may not have one. Congrats! :clap:
snakecharmer
08-10-2006, 09:47 PM
Long limbs combined with a short torso make for the worst possible leverages for squatting and benching.
Well, this explains a lot for me. I'm 5'1 and have long legs, short torso...and my squat and bench weights suck. However, my deads are pretty good IMO.
EC's Article on relative strength (http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=718924)
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