carbs vs. protein before bed?

[gymgurl]

I'm just wondering, assuming that the total daily calories and macronutrient values stayed the same, would it be a lot worse to say eat oatmeal with peanut butter before bed compared with cottage cheese and peanut butter? (with a goal of adding muscle mass).

[Erik]

I'm just wondering, assuming that the total daily calories and macronutrient values stayed the same, would it be a lot worse to say eat oatmeal with peanut butter before bed compared with cottage cheese and peanut butter? (with a goal of adding muscle mass).

Why would you not have protein in a meal?

[gymgurl]

yah, that is a good point, didn't quite think that one through... I'm just trying to think of something extra to add to my diet to increase the calories and I'm already eating enough protein during the day so was wondering if it'd be really bad to add some oatmeal with peanut butter but without protein as an extra snack/meal before bed.

[Strive2Define]

You can always add a scoop of pp in your oats...

[rachel.]

I have the same goal as you.

I eat 1 cup worth of oats (raw) cooked with 1/3 cup of cottage cheese, with vanlla extract and splenda :)

I'm still not gaining enough weight damnit :p

[KatieB]

Why would you not have protein in a meal?


Out of curiosity -- if she really had already met her protein requirement at this point, why would she need protein in this meal?

:confused:

[Robben]

yah, that is a good point, didn't quite think that one through... I'm just trying to think of something extra to add to my diet to increase the calories and I'm already eating enough protein during the day so was wondering if it'd be really bad to add some oatmeal with peanut butter but without protein as an extra snack/meal before bed.

Gymgurl, would it be possible for you to add another meal earlier in the day? And then on the on set of the last two meals of the day taper off on the starches. Your last two meals of the day also could be higher in fiber. Could this idea help you increase the calories?

I'd like to see what her protein numbers are... Are they even being measured at this time?

[KatieB]

Gymgurl, would it be possible for you to add another meal earlier in the day? And then on the on set of the last two meals of the day taper off on the starches. Your last two meals of the day also could be higher in fiber. Could this idea help you increase the calories?

I'd like to see what her protein numbers are... Are they even being measured at this time?


Why taper off the starches?

(Sorry if I am asking stupid questions -- I just don't get the logic there...)

[Robben]

Why taper off the starches?

(Sorry if I am asking stupid questions -- I just don't get the logic there...)

Both starchy and fibrous carbs are complex - this is a good thing. The benifit of tapering off and switching over to the fibrous carbs for the last two meals is this: Fibrous carbs, as the name implies, are higher in fiber than their starchy counterparts. Fibrous carbs also, due to the higher fiber (cellulose) content, don't offer quite the same energy yield as starchy carbs. Fibrous carbs serve a dual benefit in that they not only yield an array of valuable vitamins, minerals and electrolytes, but that they also slow digestion. A slower digestive rate yields a slower release of glucose into the bloodstream. Once again, this is important so that we avoid the peaks in blood sugar and we control insulin much more effectively this way. Fibrous carbs are basically your "salad" type vegetables, things like broccoli, cauliflower, asparagus, green beans, spinach, kale, cabbage, celery, carrots, onions, squash and zucchini.

Hopefully, you can see the logic in my thinking as why I would want to taper off the starchy carbs in the latter part of the day and move more into a fibrous carb... As it goes, most of us in our diets do not get enough fiber. I hope my thoughts and the way I wrote this post answers your question... Thunder, and others, are much better at putting it down in words than I am... Sometimes, this stuff gets stuck in my head and I can not get it out of my head and get it in the right format.. I lack the scientific words and that gets me in trouble at times with others.

Again, I hope I've answered the question for you.

[quickie]

Fibrous vegetables do not provide glucose.

[Erik]

Fibrous vegetables do not provide glucose.

What do they provide?

[Robben]

Fibrous vegetables do not provide glucose.

Read the post again and digest the information like a complex carb.:funny:

[smuggie]

Both starchy and fibrous carbs are complex - this is a good thing. The benifit of tapering off and switching over to the fibrous carbs for the last two meals is this: Fibrous carbs, as the name implies, are higher in fiber than their starchy counterparts. Fibrous carbs also, due to the higher fiber (cellulose) content, don't offer quite the same energy yield as starchy carbs. Fibrous carbs serve a dual benefit in that they not only yield an array of valuable vitamins, minerals and electrolytes, but that they also slow digestion. A slower digestive rate yields a slower release of glucose into the bloodstream. Once again, this is important so that we avoid the peaks in blood sugar and we control insulin much more effectively this way. Fibrous carbs are basically your "salad" type vegetables, things like broccoli, cauliflower, asparagus, green beans, spinach, kale, cabbage, celery, carrots, onions, squash and zucchini.

Hopefully, you can see the logic in my thinking as why I would want to taper off the starchy carbs in the latter part of the day and move more into a fibrous carb... As it goes, most of us in our diets do not get enough fiber. I hope my thoughts and the way I wrote this post answers your question... Thunder, and others, are much better at putting it down in words than I am... Sometimes, this stuff gets stuck in my head and I can not get it out of my head and get it in the right format.. I lack the scientific words and that gets me in trouble at times with others.

Again, I hope I've answered the question for you.
And what if you train at night and your last two meals are your PWO and PPWO meals?

[strongchick]

I understand the point of having a protein with your meal.

But in terms of insulin? Especially if you're bulking? I'm under the impression (and please correct me if I'm wrong), that even protein will cause an increase in insulin, and it takes very little insulin to start fat storage (I'm assuming this is why you mention it).

So does it really matter if your macro intake is appropriate?

[KatieB]

Both starchy and fibrous carbs are complex - this is a good thing. The benifit of tapering off and switching over to the fibrous carbs for the last two meals is this: Fibrous carbs, as the name implies, are higher in fiber than their starchy counterparts. Fibrous carbs also, due to the higher fiber (cellulose) content, don't offer quite the same energy yield as starchy carbs. Fibrous carbs serve a dual benefit in that they not only yield an array of valuable vitamins, minerals and electrolytes, but that they also slow digestion. A slower digestive rate yields a slower release of glucose into the bloodstream. Once again, this is important so that we avoid the peaks in blood sugar and we control insulin much more effectively this way. Fibrous carbs are basically your "salad" type vegetables, things like broccoli, cauliflower, asparagus, green beans, spinach, kale, cabbage, celery, carrots, onions, squash and zucchini.

Hopefully, you can see the logic in my thinking as why I would want to taper off the starchy carbs in the latter part of the day and move more into a fibrous carb... As it goes, most of us in our diets do not get enough fiber. I hope my thoughts and the way I wrote this post answers your question... Thunder, and others, are much better at putting it down in words than I am... Sometimes, this stuff gets stuck in my head and I can not get it out of my head and get it in the right format.. I lack the scientific words and that gets me in trouble at times with others.

Again, I hope I've answered the question for you.


Have to admit, I still don't get it... What difference does it make whether you eat salad and broccoli in the middle of the day or before bed?

:scratch:

[KatieB]

I understand the point of having a protein with your meal.



I still don't. If I have eaten all the protein I need in a day, why eat more than I need? I really don't see the point...

Especially if it is right before bed and therefore satiety is only an issue until you fall asleep...

I am completely lost in this thread lol.

[Erik]

I still don't. If I have eaten all the protein I need in a day, why eat more than I need? I really don't see the point...

Especially if it is right before bed and therefore satiety is only an issue until you fall asleep...

I am completely lost in this thread lol.

You're going to go a good 6-8 hours without any protein during sleep as it is already. If your last protein feeding was say 4 hours before bed, that's up to 10-12 hours. Amino acids/protein aren't like blood sugar/liver glycogen.

Does that not seem like a long time to you? There is no readily tappable 'storage depot' for amino acids.

[KatieB]

You're going to go a good 6-8 hours without any protein during sleep as it is already. If your last protein feeding was say 4 hours before bed, that's up to 10-12 hours. Amino acids/protein aren't like blood sugar/liver glycogen.

Does that not seem like a long time to you? There is no readily tappable 'storage depot' for amino acids.


That actually makes perfect sense -- thx. I wasn't thinking about it like that at all...

[gymgurl]

I understand the point of having a protein with your meal.

But in terms of insulin? Especially if you're bulking? I'm under the impression (and please correct me if I'm wrong), that even protein will cause an increase in insulin, and it takes very little insulin to start fat storage (I'm assuming this is why you mention it).

So does it really matter if your macro intake is appropriate?

This is more of what I am wondering about, just how it affects insulin.

My protein is usually about 130 grams a day (I'm 116 pounds) and I'm eating around 1900 calories right now. I can see the point about going so long without protein though... Maybe I'll just switch some protein from another meal where it is higher and put it before bed as well. What would you say would be the minimum amount of protein I should be eating for it to 'be effective'...if that's an appropriate way to put it?

[quickie]

What do they provide?

I mean I wouldn't count it. If you subtract half the carbs for fiber your'e looking at rather insignificant carb values unless you eat TONS of them. :shrug:

EDIT: They contain glucose, fructose and sucrose depending on the vegetable.

[Robben]

And what if you train at night and your last two meals are your PWO and PPWO meals?

Smuggie, if you train at night then make the adjustments in your diet and in your meal plans and make your what ifs work for you within that 24 hour time span... What's important is that you're getting enough fibrous/starchy carbs, enough proteins, enough fats, in your diet to make it all work. This in and of itself will take care of your what ifs.

[Robben]

Guys lets take a timeout - Lets talk carbs: Todd Swinney, John Parrillo will help us here.

Carbohydrates exist in basically three forms. Monosaccharides, disaccharides and polysaccharides. Monosaccharides are simple sugars such as glucose and fructose. Glucose is probably the most familiar and it's often referred to as "blood sugar". Fructose is the sugar found in fruits and honey and is considered to be the sweetest of the simple carbohydrates.

Disaccharides are formed by combining two monosaccharides. For example, table sugar or sucrose is composed of glucose and fructose. Lactose or milk sugar is composed of glucose and galactose. Sucrose is considered to be the most common dietary disaccharide in the United States. The estimate is that about 25% of the total calories of an average American comes from sucrose. That's alarming.

Polysaccharides are complex carbohydrates that contain three or more monosaccharides. Polysaccharide chains may be rather short (3 monosaccharides) or very long (hundreds of monosaccharides). For fuel sources, polysaccharides are the preference. The two most common forms of polysaccharides are cellulose and starch. Humans lack the digestive enzymes necessary to digest cellulose and thus cellulose forms fiber and is discarded as waste in the fecal material. Starch however, found in corn, grains, beans, potatoes and peas is easily digested by humans and should make up the bulk of your carbohydrate consumption.

Starchy and fibrous carbs are both "complex" carbs (polysaccharides) in that they digest more slowly and allow for a slower release of glucose into the bloodstream. This results in steady blood sugar levels, and prevents the spikes in insulin that encourage fat storage. All of the carbohydrates in a meal plan - diet should be well thought out and should come from good slow release polysaccharides.

Starchy carbs should be your bodies preferred fuel source. Starchy carbs should come from natural, unrefined sources. Good choices for starchy carbs include things like barley, brown rice, corn, chickpeas, garbanzo beans, lima beans, oatmeal, peas, pinto beans, kidney beans, potatoes, and sweet potatoes.

Fibrous carbs, are higher in fiber than their starchy counterparts. Fibrous carbs also, due to the higher fiber (cellulose) content, don't offer quite the same energy yield as starchy carbs. Fibrous carbs serve a dual benefit not only do they yield an array of valuable vitamins, minerals and electrolytes, but that they also slow digestion. A slower digestive rate yields a slower release of glucose into the bloodstream. Once again, this is important so that we avoid the peaks in blood sugar and we control insulin much more effectively this way. Fibrous carbs are basically "salad" type vegetables, things such as broccoli, cauliflower, asparagus, green beans, spinach, kale, cabbage, celery, carrots, onions, squash and zucchini.

And there ya have it...

[Aurora]

If I were you I would split your protein grams across the meals you are having (22 grams over 6 meals). From my understanding the body can't process more then 30 grams at a time anyways and this split inreases the bodies ability to utilise as much of the protein as possible, you should be having a protein cource with every meal so a minimum isn't as important as meeting your daily values as they have been planned for you.

[Erik]

From my understanding the body can't process more then 30 grams at a time anyways and this split inreases the bodies ability to utilise as much of the protein as possible,

Wrong.

Is this myth actually still alive?

[janey]

Wrong.

Is this myth actually still alive?

Alive and kicking. :lol3:

[ironangel]

Since oats are a great source of fiber and low GI anyway, I dont see anything wrong with having oats, PP or CC, and PB before bed especailly if you are bulking.

[gymgurl]

what I'm still wondering, moreso theoretically speaking, obviously it isn't the smart thing to do, if you were to have a fat-carb meal before bed as opposed to fat-protein, would there be a great different in any sort of hormonal release that would promote greater fat storage since you are already in an hypercalorically state?

[Aurora]

Wrong.

Is this myth actually still alive?

Ok when was this debunked? Maybe it is funny to other people on this board but it is a sworn by several top coaches and athletes out there. Point me in the right direction then!

[Erik]

Ok when was this debunked? Maybe it is funny to other people on this board but it is a sworn by several top coaches and athletes out there. Point me in the right direction then!

Debunked? It was never proven because it CAN'T be proven. How on earth could such a thing be proven? It even defies basic logic.

So a 115lb female and a 300lb powerlifter can both only digest 30g of protein per meal?

And it demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of digestive physiology.

[Aurora]

Debunked? It was never proven because it CAN'T be proven. How on earth could such a thing be proven? It even defies basic logic.

So a 115lb female and a 300lb powerlifter can both only digest 30g of protein per meal?

And it demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of digestive physiology.

I was under the assumption we were talking about a 115 lb female... How much protein can a 115 lb female digest at one time? Or is it about the total food calories in at one sitting that is more important?

[Erik]

I was under the assumption we were talking about a 115 lb female... How much protein can a 115 lb female digest at one time? Or is it about the total food calories in at one sitting that is more important?

Really? So where did that idea come from? The 30g protein/meal thing is specific to a 115lb female? What about a 135lb female?

Virtually everything you eat gets digested. Larger quantities simply take longer to digest. You don't see whole proteins being excreted right? They're being digested.

[CraveMuscle]

so, then, does the confusion center around the word "use"?

meaning, if you only ate one meal per day, ignoring the impracticality of it, and ate all 150 g of your protein in that one meal, you would digest it all eventually, but you might not ___________(insert other word here)_______ it the effectively?

[mark]

I think this idea originally came about in relation to whey protein, and the fact that it's passed through the system so quickly that some of it won't be absorbed. At least, that's the way I always heard it. I don't know how much of that is based in fact.

Obviously, with whole foods, like Erik said, everything is digested. The food will sit in your stomach until all of it has been broken down. This occurs over an extended period of time, so I don't think there's much risk in your body not absorbing what you take in.

[Aurora]

This was the suggested maximum amount of protein at 1 sitting for females 110 lbs- 140 lbs. This was given to me by my old trainer however, he is not on this board and I am not a trainer. By all means set me straight then.

[Erik]

This was the suggested maximum amount of protein at 1 sitting for females 110 lbs- 140 lbs. This was given to me by my old trainer however, he is not on this board and I am not a trainer. By all means set me straight then.

I did. It's wrong and has ZERO scientific basis.

[Strive2Define]

Obviously, with whole foods, like Erik said, everything is digested. The food will sit in your stomach until all of it has been broken down. This occurs over an extended period of time, so I don't think there's much risk in your body not absorbing what you take in.

Ok I am confused..what is your body excreting through bowel movements if it isn't undigested foods?

[JJ29]

so, then, does the confusion center around the word "use"?

meaning, if you only ate one meal per day, ignoring the impracticality of it, and ate all 150 g of your protein in that one meal, you would digest it all eventually, but you might not ___________(insert other word here)_______ it the effectively?


Perhaps that word you are looking for is "process". If you tried to eat that much, you may just end up w/ a tummy ache for a while.

[Jen]

Perhaps that word you are looking for is "process". If you tried to eat that much, you may just end up w/ a tummy ache for a while.


exactly.

our bodies are capable of doing much more than percieved.
wether it be 150g carbs, 150g protein or fat in one sitting- ALL gets digested, the rate will be slowed compared to slower portions, and depending on the structure of the food- is is isolate protein? high in fats protein, fibrous carbs, high glycemic, etc.
in the end, all is digested. it doesnt mean its better for you though,
we split protein servings up over the day in each meal for a consistant flow of amino acids, along with reasons such as appetite, glycemic response, etc.

[smuggie]

Smuggie, if you train at night then make the adjustments in your diet and in your meal plans and make your what ifs work for you within that 24 hour time span... What's important is that you're getting enough fibrous/starchy carbs, enough proteins, enough fats, in your diet to make it all work. This in and of itself will take care of your what ifs.
I know this, Robben.

I was just interested to see what response you would give in answer to my questioning that sweeping generalization you made.

[Robben]

I know this, Robben.

I was just interested to see what response you would give in answer to my questioning that sweeping generalization you made. And what says you now? Was "that" sweeping generalization on the mark? Or was it other? Did I pass the smuggie test?

[smuggie]

And what says you now? Was "that" sweeping generalization on the mark? Or was it other? Did I pass the test?
http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/confused/confused0006.gif

[Robben]

:lol:

[smuggie]

:p

[Robben]

:yahoo:

[Ana]

omg for a sec there I thought u two were fighting.:doh:

[Robben]

Yes, it was a very intense internet moment...:uhuh: Internet Gunslingers, ya gotta love em'.:funny:

[Ana]

Yes, it was a very intense internet moment...:uhuh: Internet Gunslingers, ya gotta love em'.:funny:
:popcorn: :popcorn:

[sparkygirl]

:funny:

[smuggie]

I :love: internet drama. :lol: