Calcium

[Xwave]

I was wondering, if I cut dairy out of my diet completey, is it necessary to take calcium supplements?

[Blondell]

yes, somehow supplement. it could be in your multi...

[radgirl]

May I ask, why are you cutting all dairy?

[Jen]

yes it is wise to supplement with.
also check your protein powder if using, there generally is some in it as well.

[Xwave]

May I ask, why are you cutting all dairy?
After not seeing fatloss, my trainer wanted to see what would happen by cutting out dairy for 4 weeks.

[Xwave]

yes it is wise to supplement with.
also check your protein powder if using, there generally is some in it as well.
Ok, thanks!

[radgirl]

After not seeing fatloss, my trainer wanted to see what would happen by cutting out dairy for 4 weeks.
Cool. I hope it works out for you. Keep us posted! :D

[ironangel]

YES! I cant eat much dairy at all, but I do take a calcium supplement and a multivitamin. Most multis dont have enough calcium by themselves. I think its very important.

[Xwave]

Cool. I hope it works out for you. Keep us posted! :D
I will!!!

This is kind of off topic, but for any of you, did birth control affect your ability to lose? I went off about a month ago and I feel like I'm seeing progress...however small that is.

[strongchick]

Dairy shouldn't make a difference, I wouldn't think....

[Rafferty]

After not seeing fatloss, my trainer wanted to see what would happen by cutting out dairy for 4 weeks.

Your trainer is clueless.

[Xwave]

Your trainer is clueless.
Thanks

[Xwave]

Your trainer is clueless.
Although, isn't the affects of dairy on fat loss unique to the individual?

[Rafferty]

Although, isn't the affects of dairy on fat loss unique to the individual?

As far as I'm aware, only in terms of calories, nothing else that I know of. Calcium is believed to have a fat loss benefit, but I don't think that's what you're referring to.

"Cut out all dairy" is a grasping-for-straws sounding statement to me. Looking more closely at overall intake, energy balance & activity levels seems more appropriate. Accuracy in food intake reporting is critical.

[Inatic]

After not seeing fatloss, my trainer wanted to see what would happen by cutting out dairy for 4 weeks.

perhaps your diet needs to be reworked or you have an endocrine (thyroid) condition?

[Xwave]

At the risk of this :oops: or being teased.......I am doing Cathy Savage's SOS program. I have been for 2 months...no noticeable difference.
Rafferty, I agree, in the end it must be caloric deficit. I have been measuring everything!!!! And I've had a cheat meal once a week. And I'm for sure eating at a deficit. Is cutting dairy grasping of straws? Maybe but maybe it'll work for me?

INATIC:My last blood tests were normal and I've been strict about my diet.

I also have an eating disorder (anorexia) past. I'm wondering if it's just my metabolism as well? Oh and birth control pills.

[Rafferty]

What were you doing diet-wise before starting that? How often are you refeeding, and how are they structured? What's your daily deficit?

You may be due for a 1-2 week break at maintenance levels to bring leptin back up & reset yourself before going back at it again.

IIRC I think the past anorexia may be a factor. Have to dig that article up...

[Xwave]

What were you doing diet-wise before starting that? How often are you refeeding, and how are they structured? What's your daily deficit?

You may be due for a 1-2 week break at maintenance levels to bring leptin back up & reset yourself before going back at it again.

IIRC I think the past anorexia may be a factor. Have to dig that article up...

Oh boy......do you want the essay????

In Summer of 2003 I did cardio and restricted my diet by reducing portion sizes, typical dieting stuff. By the summer of 2004, I had been consuming max 800 cals each day. Mostly veggies and fruit (I lived off of salads) with the occasional "real" meal. I pretty much carried on. I would say I didn't make a real effort to eat properly until the the end of 2005. I then discovered O2 and tried to eat more healthy things. Slowly I made my way to maintenance (about 1600 cals)...put on weight and ate that way for about 2 months solid. I then went on a diet for 4 weeks in June. That didn't work so I went back to normal eating. My last dieting stint was UD2 for two weeks at the end of August. That was horrible. Left me tired and working out all the time. I then ate at about 1600 cals for two weeks before starting SOS in September.

My cals average to about 1300 cals right now.

My cheat meals are pretty small and I haven't done a real carb-load or re-feed since UD2.

I hope that provides enough info!

[Rafferty]

First, when you said "Slowly I made my way to maintenance (about 1600 cals)...put on weight and ate that way for about 2 months solid." that makes me question your maint. being 1600 - by definition, you don't gain at maintenance.

So, it's possible that your maint. is truly lower than that. Not sure your current weight & activity levels however. Unless you have something horribly wrong you're unaware of, calorie deficit should = weight loss. You might try a 5-8 hour carb load of 2-3x BW grams of carb once a week.

[Inatic]

At the risk of this :oops: or being teased.......I am doing Cathy Savage's SOS program. I have been for 2 months...no noticeable difference.
Rafferty, I agree, in the end it must be caloric deficit. I have been measuring everything!!!! And I've had a cheat meal once a week. And I'm for sure eating at a deficit. Is cutting dairy grasping of straws? Maybe but maybe it'll work for me?

INATIC:My last blood tests were normal and I've been strict about my diet.

I also have an eating disorder (anorexia) past. I'm wondering if it's just my metabolism as well? Oh and birth control pills.

Well, "normal" is subjective around here. Optimal is a better reference to thyroid levels.

Eating Disorders and severe dieting do affect metobolism. Most women are able to lose taking BC pills.

Do you have a copy of that blood work? Were the tests for your thyroid FREE T3 and FREE T4, TSH and Ferritin? If so We your levels at a min of midrange with Tsh at 1 or under?

[Xwave]

First, when you said "Slowly I made my way to maintenance (about 1600 cals)...put on weight and ate that way for about 2 months solid." that makes me question your maint. being 1600 - by definition, you don't gain at maintenance.

So, it's possible that your maint. is truly lower than that. Not sure your current weight & activity levels however. Unless you have something horribly wrong you're unaware of, calorie deficit should = weight loss. You might try a 5-8 hour carb load of 2-3x BW grams of carb once a week.
Oh..I know you don't gain at maintenance but for me, it was going from 100 lbs (underweight for me at 5'4", lost my period during that time). To having plateaued at 130 and now trying to lose fat. I should have clarified.

[Xwave]

Well, "normal" is subjective around here. Optimal is a better reference to thyroid levels.

Eating Disorders and severe dieting do affect metobolism. Most women are able to lose taking BC pills.

Do you have a copy of that blood work? Were the tests for your thyroid FREE T3 and FREE T4, TSH and Ferritin? If so We your levels at a min of midrange with Tsh at 1 or under?
I don't have it with me right now, but if I find it, I'll post it.

[Xwave]

What were you doing diet-wise before starting that? How often are you refeeding, and how are they structured? What's your daily deficit?

You may be due for a 1-2 week break at maintenance levels to bring leptin back up & reset yourself before going back at it again.
IIRC I think the past anorexia may be a factor. Have to dig that article up...
Will the be really affective? If the science is out there to back it up, I'm game for trying it...even if it goes against "SOS protocols"...

Do you mind finding that article? I've been searching pubmed for articles on depressed metabolism and anorexia but I haven't found anything in terms of repairing it in a human body.

[AugustGirl]

Rafferty, I'd be really interested in that article as well (if you can find it). I too have a long history of anorexia, so this very much interests me. Thank you :)

[strongchick]

Anorexia definitely does plan a role. Leptin levels in women with anorexia are very much reduced, as is their metabolic rate. You can't just assume their bodies are going to act like someone who hasn't done such harm to their body.

In terms of repairing it, there aren't any studies on that. There are a number on weight re-gain distribution, but none that actually measured metabolism (as far as I know anyway). Women with AN preferentially will regain visceral adipose tissue rather than subq, and it doesn't always redistribute well. But it depends also on how long you were sick and how severe you were.

keep in mind that the studies on women with AN are going to be biased by the patient populations, which are usually teenagers in inpatient units.

To the OP: have you seen a doctor? how long were you sick?

[Xwave]

Anorexia definitely does plan a role. Leptin levels in women with anorexia are very much reduced, as is their metabolic rate. You can't just assume their bodies are going to act like someone who hasn't done such harm to their body.

In terms of repairing it, there aren't any studies on that. There are a number on weight re-gain distribution, but none that actually measured metabolism (as far as I know anyway). Women with AN preferentially will regain visceral adipose tissue rather than subq, and it doesn't always redistribute well. But it depends also on how long you were sick and how severe you were.

keep in mind that the studies on women with AN are going to be biased by the patient populations, which are usually teenagers in inpatient units.

To the OP: have you seen a doctor? how long were you sick?

Yes, I have seen a doctor. The thing is all my blood work was normal. Even while I was still anorexic, my blood tests were all fine. I was sick for 16 months. I guess it's also hard to say how "sick" I was. My doctor diagnosed anorexia because I had lost a significant amount of weight and my period had stopped. However at 5'4" and 98-100lbs...I wasn't deathly sick.

[AugustGirl]

Women with AN preferentially will regain visceral adipose tissue rather than subq, and it doesn't always redistribute well. But it depends also on how long you were sick and how severe you were.



Sarah, is there a scientific explanation/reason for this? I've heard it before (many times) but never saw an explanation to go along with it. It scares me because I'm in the initial stages of gaining (I went through a long relapse which lasted the past couple of years, and I have a very long history of anorexia - diagnosed at 11 and am now 24). I don't want to get a fat stomach and look all out of proportion. That thought certainly doesn't help me in my attempts at recovery :( yikes....

Sorry for hijacking!

[Xwave]

And to add, yes I've noticed that my weight distribution is more around my middle but my body was like that before dieting, so that could be a genetic factor. Not helped be re-gaining weight and weird re-distribution of weight.

[Xwave]

It's alright!! I want the same answers! :thumb:

[strongchick]

Yes, I have seen a doctor. The thing is all my blood work was normal. Even while I was still anorexic, my blood tests were all fine. I was sick for 16 months. I guess it's also hard to say how "sick" I was. My doctor diagnosed anorexia because I had lost a significant amount of weight and my period had stopped. However at 5'4" and 98-100lbs...I wasn't deathly sick.

You can have perfectly healthy blood work and be very ill. The body adapts easily. Blood tests are NOT an indicator of how severe you were. I know people who had 'normal' blood tests and still died. I know others who died at a healthy weight...even weight isn't necessarily a sign of how sick someone is.

As for a scientific reason...VAT is the fat that protects your internal organs. Its probably a self-preservation issue. Most of the studies just report it, they don't try to explain it. And just because its in the literature doesn't mean it will definitely happen to YOU.

[Xwave]

You can have perfectly healthy blood work and be very ill. The body adapts easily. Blood tests are NOT an indicator of how severe you were. I know people who had 'normal' blood tests and still died. I know others who died at a healthy weight...even weight isn't necessarily a sign of how sick someone is.

As for a scientific reason...VAT is the fat that protects your internal organs. Its probably a self-preservation issue. Most of the studies just report it, they don't try to explain it. And just because its in the literature doesn't mean it will definitely happen to YOU.

So I guess the bottom line is: Yes, a starvation diet does mess up your body but your body compensates. So when you actually eat again, it will go through self-preservation mechanisms that makes getting rid of that fat a pain in the butt. And it's essentially a long process that takes a lot of hard work and a certain amount of guess work? (ie maintenance cals, deficit cals, re-feeds, etc.)

Would a carb re-feed as suggested by Rafferty be valid in terms of getting to a point where fat loss can happen?

At least now I'm comfortable with my body and I'm not agnozing over the extra pounds. August, that's the lesson I learned. You're going to have to deal with the fact that weight gain will happen when you eat more, but eating more will be better for you in the long run.

[AugustGirl]

You can have perfectly healthy blood work and be very ill. The body adapts easily. Blood tests are NOT an indicator of how severe you were. I know people who had 'normal' blood tests and still died. I know others who died at a healthy weight...even weight isn't necessarily a sign of how sick someone is.

As for a scientific reason...VAT is the fat that protects your internal organs. Its probably a self-preservation issue. Most of the studies just report it, they don't try to explain it. And just because its in the literature doesn't mean it will definitely happen to YOU.


well, that is a little reassuring, but with my luck it probably will happen to me. UGH! Anyway, what you wrote about lab results is a bit scarey. My labs were very unhealthy for a long time and are just now starting to come back into the low-to-normal ranges (now that I'm eating much better and actually recovering). It's scarey to think that even with healthy lab reports your body can still give out. How can that be? (especially once one has reached a healthy weight) Is this more for bulimics (since the purging can do severe damage) or does it apply to anorexics as well? (I have no history of bulimic behaviors whatsoever, but have a long history of anorexia) Oh my, I am sorry for all these questions! If you are getting annoyed, please tell me. Anyway, thank you for your help. I lurk in your journey and really admire you :)

[AugustGirl]

So I guess the bottom line is: Yes, a starvation diet does mess up your body but your body compensates. So when you actually eat again, it will go through self-preservation mechanisms that makes getting rid of that fat a pain in the butt. And it's essentially a long process that takes a lot of hard work and a certain amount of guess work? (ie maintenance cals, deficit cals, re-feeds, etc.)

Would a carb re-feed as suggested by Rafferty be valid in terms of getting to a point where fat loss can happen?

At least now I'm comfortable with my body and I'm not agnozing over the extra pounds. August, that's the lesson I learned. You're going to have to deal with the fact that weight gain will happen when you eat more, but eating more will be better for you in the long run.


Hi xwave. Thank you for your advice (I am so sorry for taking over your thread!) I just have so many questions and fears surrounding the recovery/refeeding process. It's a long, hard road, but I am more determined than ever to get healthy again. I have wasted too much of my life on this disease. It really helps to know that others are going through the same thing and are making progress. Hugs to you! :console:

[Xwave]

Hi xwave. Thank you for your advice (I am so sorry for taking over your thread!) I just have so many questions and fears surrounding the recovery/refeeding process. It's a long, hard road, but I am more determined than ever to get healthy again. I have wasted too much of my life on this disease. It really helps to know that others are going through the same thing and are making progress. Hugs to you! :console:
Absolutely! Are you seeing someone? I found that in the end, the mind games were more difficult to overcome than actually putting food in my mouth. Right? Because what stops you is the voice in your head that says, "you're going to be fat and ugly if you eat that." That ugly voice isn't true. Eating healthy and gaining some weight doesn't de-value you.

[AugustGirl]

At least now I'm comfortable with my body and I'm not agnozing over the extra pounds. August, that's the lesson I learned. You're going to have to deal with the fact that weight gain will happen when you eat more, but eating more will be better for you in the long run.


I am SO happy to hear that you are at the point where you feel comfortable in your own body. That is really wonderful :) I am trying so hard to get to that point myself.

And I will keep repeating that last sentence you wrote to me. I need to keep telling myself that until I believe it! Thank you for the support

[Xwave]

I am SO happy to hear that you are at the point where you feel comfortable in your own body. That is really wonderful :) I am trying so hard to get to that point myself.

And I will keep repeating that last sentence you wrote to me. I need to keep telling myself that until I believe it! Thank you for the support
If you want more details of how I got through, feel free to PM me! :wave:

[AugustGirl]

Absolutely! Are you seeing someone? I found that in the end, the mind games were more difficult to overcome than actually putting food in my mouth. Right? Because what stops you is the voice in your head that says, "you're going to be fat and ugly if you eat that." That ugly voice isn't true. Eating healthy and gaining some weight doesn't de-value you.


YES! The mind games are the hardest part to overcome. It really is a mental disease (even more so than a physical one). The physical is so easy to notice with anorexia, but the mindset is hidden from the world. It totally sucks but I'm getting better day by day with baby steps. And yes, I am seeing a huge team of professionals (including an MD, therapist, dietician, and a whole slew of other professionals who specialize in EDs) Recovery is exhausting, but the anorexia is far more exhausting in the end. I know I (we) can do it :) Are you seeing anyone?

[AugustGirl]

If you want more details of how I got through, feel free to PM me! :wave:


aww thank you sweetie! I will definitely do that :)

[strongchick]

well, that is a little reassuring, but with my luck it probably will happen to me. UGH! Anyway, what you wrote about lab results is a bit scarey. My labs were very unhealthy for a long time and are just now starting to come back into the low-to-normal ranges (now that I'm eating much better and actually recovering). It's scarey to think that even with healthy lab reports your body can still give out. How can that be? (especially once one has reached a healthy weight) Is this more for bulimics (since the purging can do severe damage) or does it apply to anorexics as well? (I have no history of bulimic behaviors whatsoever, but have a long history of anorexia) Oh my, I am sorry for all these questions! If you are getting annoyed, please tell me. Anyway, thank you for your help. I lurk in your journey and really admire you :)

It can happen to anyone. When your body becomes acclimated to a lower caloric intake and extreme malnutrition, refeeding can sometimes make it go into shock (note, this is usually for people with extreme malnutrition). This is why for many severe cases, refeeding is done in the hospital under professional care...you can have a heart attack if it is done incorrectly. Sudden electrolyte imbalance.

But, that isn't very common, so don't freak out.

You're in Boston, right? Do you go to the Cambridge center for treatment? Just curious.

As Xwave said, EDs are never about food or weight, but the emotions and thoughts behind them. Good luck on your journey; feel free to PM me if you'd like.

[AugustGirl]

It can happen to anyone. When your body becomes acclimated to a lower caloric intake and extreme malnutrition, refeeding can sometimes make it go into shock (note, this is usually for people with extreme malnutrition). This is why for many severe cases, refeeding is done in the hospital under professional care...you can have a heart attack if it is done incorrectly. Sudden electrolyte imbalance.

But, that isn't very common, so don't freak out.

You're in Boston, right? Do you go to the Cambridge center for treatment? Just curious.

As Xwave said, EDs are never about food or weight, but the emotions and thoughts behind them. Good luck on your journey; feel free to PM me if you'd like.


Hi Sarah. Yes, I am in Boston (born and lived here my whole life :)) I have never gone to the Cambridge ED center, but I have been inpatient at Children's Hospital in Boston (back when I was a minor) and a long-term residential treatment center in Arlington, Mass. (at which I stayed for almost two years). Needless to say, this has been a very long battle for me. After all these years I finally feel like I am making some real progress. I think I was just too young to deal with the emotions/psychological underpinnings of the anorexia before this point. I am hooked up with a fantastic therapist for once (all my previous experiences were pretty bad), as well as a wonderful PCP and R.D. I am also working with a body-work/massage therapist and a restorative yoga instructor, both of whom have helped me tremendously in the mind/body connection area. I am aware of the dangers involved in refeeding, but fortunately I have been able (thus far) to do this as an outpatient this time around without any major complications. My doctor was strongly urging me to go inpatient for a long while due to my weight (77 lbs at 5'3.5") and state of malnutrition, but being the stubborn person I am, I wouldn't go. I am slowly making progress but I constantly worry that something drastic will happen when I least expect it (from stories I've heard along the lines of what you mentioned). I'm trying not to worry myself sick but I get paranoid about it. Sometimes I wonder how/why I ever got into this mess, but I guess that's what therapy is for! Anyway, thank you so much for all your help and support. I will definitely PM you sometime, and maybe pop into your journal to say hi (if that's ok)

All the best to you :)

[Aaron_F]

Anorexia patients tend to have fooked up hormonal profiles when 'fasted' including raised testosterone, cortisol and lowered estrogen. (Even after 'refeeding' the hormones are within normal ranges, but not especially 'normal'.)

When the diet is deficient in energy you wont notice any effect of the hormone alteration in terms of body comp. But supply some energy and the hormonal profile puts itself to gaining visceral adipose. More test, less estrogen puts you into a male pattern adiposity from the start, and raised cortisol is associated with central adiposity as well.

[Rafferty]

Aaron & strongchik summed up what the articles/studies that I've seen have said re: anorexia - the increased cortisol & related VAT issues.

[Xwave]

Thanks for the info..I guess I'll just plug along and see what does and doesn't work for my body.

[strongchick]

That's all you can do. :) Good luck

(and sure, PM me or visit my journal anytime)

[AugustGirl]

Thanks for that info Aaron :)

I guess all I can do is what xwave said: plug along and see what works for my body