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Miss Laurel
05-08-2006, 10:16 PM
I generally find all the information I need by searching but I just have a quick question in regards to high carb days and training. When using carb cycling to cut, is it alright to increase training volume on high carb days. I just figured that on those days you are consuming more calories (that could go towards recovery), so it wouldn't be detrimental to increase training volume as well.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Cheers!

Leah
05-08-2006, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by Miss Laurel@May 8 2006, 06:16 PM
I generally find all the information I need by searching but I just have a quick question in regards to high carb days and training. When using carb cycling to cut, is it alright to increase training volume on high carb days. I just figured that on those days you are consuming more calories (that could go towards recovery), so it wouldn't be detrimental to increase training volume as well.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Cheers!
Well....w/ carb cycling...you need to look at things over a longer period of time...because you can't judge dady by dady since calories are fluctuating. While some days are extremely low, and some days are extremely high...and typically you would do more work on those high days...your overall weekly totals still need to be below maintenance...so you do still need to keep your overall volume in check. It is fine to put your hardest training on your high days though....meaning weights + a HIIT session.

Miss Laurel
05-08-2006, 10:44 PM
Perfect! Thanks a lot

Erik
05-09-2006, 12:50 AM
Remember, recovery b/w sessions isn't what you should be focusing on. Think of long term recovery.

The question then becomes WHY would you want to do more volume on a high carb day?

If your end of week totals are in a deficit, you need to be very mindful of your volume. Remember, the major goal of training while dieting and in a caloric deficit is muscle retention.

CraveMuscle
05-09-2006, 01:00 AM
is there a general rule of thumb for not overdoing volume while dieting, or is it on a case by case basis?

Erik
05-09-2006, 01:04 AM
Originally posted by CraveMuscle@May 8 2006, 09:00 PM
is there a general rule of thumb for not overdoing volume while dieting, or is it on a case by case basis?
I believe you're able to reduce volume from non dieting conditions by 2/3 and still be ok.

But as with everyone, tolerance to exercise intensity, volume, etc. is going to be different from person to person.

Matt might have some ideas on this topic ....

clsupnorth
05-09-2006, 02:52 AM
This is weird - I was just wondering about this today.
I understand the differences in diet between a cut and a bulk.
But I don't think I understand the differences in weight training between a cut, maint, and a bulk.
For example, if my usual weight routine is the Upper Vertical/Horizontal Push/Pull and Quad/Hip 4 day split, and I'm lifting in weekly rotations of Light (3 x 10), Heavy (5x5), then how do I adjust it to focus on muscle retention (and not muscle gain) during a cut? Transversly, how do I adjust to focus on muscle gain when not in a cut?

Perhaps I've overlooked the stickie for this.....

PowerManDL
05-09-2006, 03:05 AM
Originally posted by Thunder@May 8 2006, 09:04 PM
I believe you're able to reduce volume from non dieting conditions by 2/3 and still be ok.

But as with everyone, tolerance to exercise intensity, volume, etc. is going to be different from person to person.

Matt might have some ideas on this topic ....
The 2/3 rule is generally applicable for volume/frequency, yes.

The caveat is that weight on the bar stays high; considering dieting conditions, this generally means keeping quality of work high. My ideal would be one heavy attempt in the 4-6 range, then a backoff set in the 8-10 range. Though depending on the severity of the deficit and individual tolerances, this can vary.

PowerManDL
05-09-2006, 03:07 AM
Originally posted by clsupnorth@May 8 2006, 10:52 PM
This is weird - I was just wondering about this today.
I understand the differences in diet between a cut and a bulk.
But I don't think I understand the differences in weight training between a cut, maint, and a bulk.
For example, if my usual weight routine is the Upper Vertical/Horizontal Push/Pull and Quad/Hip 4 day split, and I'm lifting in weekly rotations of Light (3 x 10), Heavy (5x5), then how do I adjust it to focus on muscle retention (and not muscle gain) during a cut? Transversly, how do I adjust to focus on muscle gain when not in a cut?

Perhaps I've overlooked the stickie for this.....
5x5 = 25 reps
3x10 = 30 reps

2/3 reduction:

5x5 = ~ 1-2x5
3x10 = ~1x10

Should be sufficient for maintenance during cutting, assuming that's a standard workload. Again, contingent upon calorie restriction and individual tolerances, frequency and workload can be adjusted; as a rule, frequency should be dropped as well, however.

clsupnorth
05-09-2006, 03:19 AM
Originally posted by PowerManDL@May 8 2006, 10:07 PM
5x5 = 25 reps
3x10 = 30 reps

2/3 reduction:

5x5 = ~ 1-2x5
3x10 = ~1x10

Should be sufficient for maintenance during cutting, assuming that's a standard workload. Again, contingent upon calorie restriction and individual tolerances, frequency and workload can be adjusted; as a rule, frequency should be dropped as well, however.
Oh! That actually makes sense! So if I move into a cut for the few months, I should alter my entire weight routine sets/reps by 2/3's (but not the weight itself)? Just want to make sure I have this hashed out right.

If frequency should be fiddled with and dropped lower, then is a 4 day split not advisable?

PowerManDL
05-09-2006, 03:23 AM
The 2/3 is just a general rule of thumb, a starting point. You may be able to get away with more, or need to do less. And yes, the weight should be the last thing you drop. Go by what you can tolerate; but just bear in mind that your goal is to maintain what you have, not push for more.

I wouldn't say a four day split isn't advisable; some minimum baseline of frequency is still necessary.

Though if it gets to be too much, dropping back from that would be advisable even if for just a few weeks.

jasonblanco
05-09-2006, 05:12 AM
This thread is uncanny. I too am doing a very similar 4 day split, with each workout consisting of 2 5x5 sets and 2 3x8 sets, and I'm carb cycling with a daily average of 500 cal defiicit. I feel like I'm doing a lot of volume with my legs and quads especially (5x5 squats, 5x5 bulgarians, 5x5 sumo dl, 3x8 split legged squats, 3x8 DB lunge each week).

Just tonight I was wondering whether I might be doing too much considering my diet. One week of dieting, and no problems so far. I'm starting to lose some body weight, but I'm still increasing weights. Something will eventually have to give, and I'm presuming it's the strength increases. I just don't want to wear myself out in the process.

Erik
05-09-2006, 11:59 AM
I think decreasing leg volume when dieting - due to any increase in cardio - is always a good idea.

I remember dieting Leah down for her show last year and I cut her leg training down to once per week, because of the cardio (HIIT, etc)

jasonblanco
05-09-2006, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by Thunder@May 9 2006, 06:59 AM
I think decreasing leg volume when dieting - due to any increase in cardio - is always a good idea.

I remember dieting Leah down for her show last year and I cut her leg training down to once per week, because of the cardio (HIIT, etc)
In my case, there is no increase in cardio. I did some sprints at the track one day last week, but that's about it.

My concern was simply the leg volume while dieting. I suppose my legs will let me know if I'm overdoing it.

Leah
05-09-2006, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by jasonblanco+May 9 2006, 11:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (jasonblanco @ May 9 2006, 11:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Thunder@May 9 2006, 06:59 AM
I think decreasing leg volume when dieting - due to any increase in cardio - is always a good idea.

I remember dieting Leah down for her show last year and I cut her leg training down to once per week, because of the cardio (HIIT, etc)
In my case, there is no increase in cardio. I did some sprints at the track one day last week, but that&#39;s about it.

My concern was simply the leg volume while dieting. I suppose my legs will let me know if I&#39;m overdoing it. [/b][/quote]
Yes...they certainly will&#33; lol

strongchick
05-09-2006, 03:57 PM
Ok, from the other standpoint: in bulking, what is a good volume? If I were doing an upper/lower split what would be a good amount of total volume/day. I was actually considering this today, so this thread is good timing....

I don&#39;t want to OVERdo it, but I want to be able to do enough to ensure I gain some good muscle. So what is the difference in volume between maintenance and bulking?

clsupnorth
05-09-2006, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by Leah+May 9 2006, 10:46 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Leah @ May 9 2006, 10:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-jasonblanco@May 9 2006, 11:29 AM

I suppose my legs will let me know if I&#39;m overdoing it.
Yes...they certainly will&#33; lol [/b][/quote]
This is the point I am at - what made me realize I was doing something wrong. My legs feel way too overworked since I started dieting. The other day, during HIIT, I had to skip my last few sprints - not cause I felt winded, but because my legs were going to give out.

clsupnorth
05-09-2006, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by strongchick@May 9 2006, 10:57 AM
So what is the difference in volume between maintenance and bulking?
I am eagerly anticipating the answer to this..... and I think afterwards, a sticky should be made about these things.

PowerManDL
05-10-2006, 12:30 AM
Originally posted by strongchick@May 9 2006, 11:57 AM
Ok, from the other standpoint: in bulking, what is a good volume? If I were doing an upper/lower split what would be a good amount of total volume/day. I was actually considering this today, so this thread is good timing....

I don&#39;t want to OVERdo it, but I want to be able to do enough to ensure I gain some good muscle. So what is the difference in volume between maintenance and bulking?
My rule of thumb for a baseline starting point is generally 50-100 reps/week per "big" move. That&#39;d mean pressing, pulling, and squat/dl.

Assistance work is variable depending on tolerance, as are the total working reps.

fitmommy
05-10-2006, 01:59 AM
Originally posted by clsupnorth@May 9 2006, 05:06 PM
I am eagerly anticipating the answer to this..... and I think afterwards, a sticky should be made about these things.
Yes, agreed. I am learning alot here.