What would you change? (X-posted)

[chicca]

YES! My 1st post here! :wave: I'm excited!
Right, a little background…my gym closed for renovations months ago and hasn’t re-opened! :( So I’ve been improvising and working out at home (using anything from cat litter to a bag filled with books lol). Now, I’ve decided to stop waiting around for it to re-open and invest in a set of DBs (up to 44lbs…heavy for a weakling like me!)…so, the fact that I only have DBs to work with has dictated the choice of exercises I’ll be doing in my new routine.

I’ve picked a 4 day upper/lower split to follow for the next 6 weeks (I’ve tried the 3 day full body and I really didn’t take to it).
I think I have everything covered but I’d like any opinions/comments on the plan as I am still rather new to all this and really want to get it right.
So, let me know what you think, what you would change, etc.
-Also, would this be ok if I’m eating at a deficit or would you recommend I cut back a little on the workload?
Many thanks in advance and happy New Year!
Chicca

Upper- heavy horizontal/light vertical
5x5 DB press
5x5 Bent over lat raises
3x10 Lateral raises
3x10 Lat pull downs (I do these with a resistance band but I’d love a different vertical pull that I can do at home as they’re not very challenging, suggestions?...not pull-ups though!)

Upper- heavy vertical/light horizontal
5x5 Arnold press
5x5 Pull over
3x10 Depth push ups
3x10 One arm rows

Lower- heavy quad/light ham
5x5 Full squats
3x10 Lunge
3x10 reverse hypers (I lie on my dining room table to do these…lol…it’s quite a sight!)

Lower- heavy ham/light quad
5x5 RDL
3x10 High step ups
3x10 Split squats

[Ali]

Just wanted to say :wave:

[fitmommy]

I wanted to say HI and welcome also.:wave:

I'm not the expert (yet:wink: ) at program design. It looks nice and balanced though. But wait for the experts to chime in.

I wanted to ask you how you set up your lat pulls. Sounds really cool. Do you have a bar or a hook or somthing to hang the band from?

[smuggie]

First of all, welcome and congrats on your attitude to make the best of a less than ideal situation. That shows you're determined.

Generally speaking, you're on the right track, but we can tweak this program.

I think that 3x10 for all your light work needs to change. Mix it up a bit and do some light movements for 2-3x8 and others for 2x12.

Pullovers will not give you as much bang for your buck as pull-ups and chin-ups will. If you're too weak to do full reps on overhead pulling movements, do negatives.

Be careful with your choice of movements. Lunges are a quad dom movement and high step-ups are a hip dom movement. You should switch them around to make sure you're doing them on the appropriate days.

Bentover raises and lateral raises are not horizontal pull and vertical push movements respectively. They're scapular retraction and shoulder abduction movements respectively. Do two-arm DB rows for your heavy horizontal pull movement and DB shoulder presses for your light vertical pushing movement instead.

If you're concerned about the workload, you can cut back the 5x5 to 3x5. The goal of lifting while dieting is to maintain whatever muscle you have, not build it.

[absolut_blonde]

In addition to what Smuggie said, I don't think RDLs are the best choice for your heavy ham exercise... Personally, I prefer to do them for higher rep ranges (like 3x8-10). I am a bit wary of going super-heavy on them.

Why not try CDLs 5x5? CDLs seem a bit more condusive to heavy loading.

[smuggie]

In addition to what Smuggie said, I don't think RDLs are the best choice for your heavy ham exercise... Personally, I prefer to do them for higher rep ranges (like 3x8-10). I am a bit wary of going super-heavy on them.

Why not try CDLs 5x5? CDLs seem a bit more condusive to heavy loading.
What's the difference between doing heavy RDLs and heavy CDLs in your mind?

[jaleena]

What's the difference between doing heavy RDLs and heavy CDLs in your mind?
100lbs, give or take.

[PowerManDL]

The DL can be *too* heavy to use that much volume on, IMO.

RDLs are better for doing multiple heavy sets.

[smuggie]

The DL can be *too* heavy to use that much volume on, IMO.

RDLs are better for doing multiple heavy sets.
I know that 5x5 on CDLs taxes the shit out of me.

[PowerManDL]

It does for anybody.

The only way I can do 5x5 on the DL is to use such a light weight that it's not really giving any "strength" effect. I could do it with 315 easy, 405 if I was pushing it, maybe 455 if I wanted to see god, but why do that when I could rock out one set of 5 at 500+ and see much better returns?

The RDL doesn't have that issue.

[absolut_blonde]

What's the difference between doing heavy RDLs and heavy CDLs in your mind?

I just find I can't go nearly as heavy on them. I love RDLs, but mine are a lot weaker than my CDLs.

And I get paranoid about my form on heavy RDLs; it seems easier (for me at least) to mess it up while going heavy.

[smuggie]

I just find I can't go nearly as heavy on them. I love RDLs, but mine are a lot weaker than my CDLs.

And I get paranoid about my form on heavy RDLs; it seems easier (for me at least) to mess it up while going heavy.
Most people can't go as heavy on RDLs.

[PowerManDL]

For a 600-ish deadlifter, I can't work with much more than 400-450 on the RDL, and then for a set or two. Much less if doing 5x5.

[donnajo]

The DL can be *too* heavy to use that much volume on, IMO.

RDLs are better for doing multiple heavy sets.


It seems that it is just natural to use these this way. I instinctively feel like CDL's are for heavy low rep and RDL's more volume.

[TheDeliverator]

I can go fairly heavy (relative to my conventional deadlit) on RDLs.

I have, however, a sneaking suspicion that it has something to do with the fact that my conventional pull looks just like an RDL from the floor.

Bah.

[donnajo]

I can go fairly heavy (relative to my conventional deadlit) on RDLs.

I have, however, a sneaking suspicion that it has something to do with the fact that my conventional pull looks just like an RDL from the floor.

Bah.

Not meaning to hijack but what does TheDeliverator mean? I have a thread about this.

[TheDeliverator]

I went ahead and posted in your thread.

[chicca]

so much info... :)

I wanted to ask you how you set up your lat pulls. Sounds really cool. Do you have a bar or a hook or somthing to hang the band from?
yeah, i thought that this was a good idea but like i said it doesn't really feel right, it's like i'm spinning my wheels. maybe you can improve on it though! what i've done is hang 1 resistance band (i only have the one) on a hook that's pretty high up on my wall. then i stick my hands in to either loop and pull down. i expected this to work well because the band is a heavy resistance one but :shrug:


I think that 3x10 for all your light work needs to change. Mix it up a bit and do some light movements for 2-3x8 and others for 2x12...
Do two-arm DB rows for your heavy horizontal pull movement and DB shoulder presses for your light vertical pushing movement instead.
will do!


Lunges are a quad dom movement and high step-ups are a hip dom movement. You should switch them around to make sure you're doing them on the appropriate days.
i wasn't sure about this so i'm glad you mentioned it. i got the idea from the effective training sticky. i thought heavy quad days should have 1 heavy quad move, 1 light quad, and 1 light ham. the way you suggest it i would be doing 1 heavy quad & 2 light ham. does it matter much which way i set it up?


In addition to what Smuggie said, I don't think RDLs are the best choice for your heavy ham exercise... Personally, I prefer to do them for higher rep ranges (like 3x8-10). I am a bit wary of going super-heavy on them.

Why not try CDLs 5x5? CDLs seem a bit more condusive to heavy loading.

Warning: betraying my ignorance! :lol: :oops:
i've only ever done RDLs. i've never thought of doing CDLs with DBs? i remember being told that you could only do them with BBs! to be honest, before i bought my DB set, i considered doing CDLs with my bag filled with books! :lol3: just pick up the bag and put it back down...ah the things you come up with when you don't have a gym! :lol3:
i would rather do RDLs for higher reps because they kill my back when i go really heavy. but then, how would you have me set up my heavy ham/light quad day? just switch my RDLs for CDLs (with DBs/ book bag) and keep the rest the same?

thanks for all the advice :) so my upper days are sorted, now just to figure out the lower days and i can start training good and proper :lifter: i love this split

[absolut_blonde]

Can you buy a BB for at home? I did, and it was a great investment. (Now I just need a power cage...!)

[jaleena]

You can do something near a conventional dl with db's...same movement, but holding the weight at your sides.
But, you should get the barbell. Your weights will go way up, and gripping is so much easier :thumb:

[smuggie]

so much info... :)

yeah, i thought that this was a good idea but like i said it doesn't really feel right, it's like i'm spinning my wheels. maybe you can improve on it though! what i've done is hang 1 resistance band (i only have the one) on a hook that's pretty high up on my wall. then i stick my hands in to either loop and pull down. i expected this to work well because the band is a heavy resistance one but :shrug:
Then get some more. I suggest Jumpstretch bands or Iron Woody bands.


i wasn't sure about this so i'm glad you mentioned it. i got the idea from the effective training sticky. i thought heavy quad days should have 1 heavy quad move, 1 light quad, and 1 light ham. the way you suggest it i would be doing 1 heavy quad & 2 light ham. does it matter much which way i set it up?
In the overall scheme of things the volume will be the same, but you might find after a heavy movement you don't have a lot of juice left over for even a light movement of the same kind.

Warning: betraying my ignorance! :lol: :oops:
i've only ever done RDLs. i've never thought of doing CDLs with DBs? i remember being told that you could only do them with BBs! to be honest, before i bought my DB set, i considered doing CDLs with my bag filled with books! :lol3: just pick up the bag and put it back down...ah the things you come up with when you don't have a gym! :lol3:
i would rather do RDLs for higher reps because they kill my back when i go really heavy. but then, how would you have me set up my heavy ham/light quad day? just switch my RDLs for CDLs (with DBs/ book bag) and keep the rest the same?
If you can afford it you should invest in a barbell set. You can pick one up for around $100. Then you can do CDLs. RDLs have their place, but nothing beats CDLs for the posterior chain.

[TheDeliverator]

but nothing beats CDLs for the posterior chain.

Goodmornings.

And not the sissy fucking kind everybody likes to puss-out on. The Iron Gladiator kind...

http://irongladiators.com/images/PRODUCTSBIG/hardcore6.jpg

[smuggie]

Goodmornings.

And not the sissy fucking kind everybody likes to puss-out on. The Iron Gladiator kind...

http://irongladiators.com/images/PRODUCTSBIG/hardcore6.jpg
What constitutes "the sissy fucking kind"?

[PowerManDL]

GMs and RDLs both. RDL really isn't anything but a GM with the bar in your hand (and usually more weight). Both have purposes, and are really good for the PC, IMO.

[TheDeliverator]

What constitutes "the sissy fucking kind"

Squat the ass down, bend (barely) at the waist and not the hips, cut it only half-way down, etc.


GMs and RDLs both. RDL really isn't anything but a GM with the bar in your hand (and usually more weight). Both have purposes, and are really good for the PC, IMO.

Definitely agree that both GM's and RDL's are great for the PC, but, if you had to pick one to top them all I would go with GM's everytime.

I do disagree, however, with RDL's being the same as GM's...GM's tend to hammer the upper back, being that the lifter has to pinch and arch the upper back if he doesn't want to get stapled. With RDL's, one can get away with a fair amount of slack in the upper back.

The RDL, also, doesn't allow for one to sit as far back, in my (our, IG) experiences.

We rely heavily on the GM, and not so much on RDLs.

[Robben]

I know that 5x5 on CDLs taxes the shit out of me.

CDLs, like any exercise can end up sometimes being too much of a good thing for those who want to do bodybuilding shows or for those who want to slim down their waistlines... Gotta keep it mixed up.

[PowerManDL]

Definitely agree that both GM's and RDL's are great for the PC, but, if you had to pick one to top them all I would go with GM's everytime.

Yeah, but picking one is T-Faggery of the highest order. :)


I do disagree, however, with RDL's being the same as GM's...GM's tend to hammer the upper back, being that the lifter has to pinch and arch the upper back if he doesn't want to get stapled. With RDL's, one can get away with a fair amount of slack in the upper back.

Depends on the loading though doesn't it? GM by nature won't allow you to use as heavy a load as the RDL either.

I tend to find that the GM is more squat-specific, whereas the RDL has more pull carryover, just from my experience. That too would have an impact on what you choose.

That said, variety is good, and it won't ever hurt to throw in one or the other to address a weak point that isn't being hit.

[TheDeliverator]

Depends on the loading though doesn't it? GM by nature won't allow you to use as heavy a load as the RDL either.

I tend to find that the GM is more squat-specific, whereas the RDL has more pull carryover, just from my experience. That too would have an impact on what you choose.

We use the GM to build both the squat and the pull, but, more the pull. We do our GM's with a very close stance, feet are about 12-14 inches apart, despite being very wide-stanced squatters.

The GM is often performed in a fairly shitty way; when we have lifters that come and train with us we are often horrified with how their GM's are performed. Like I mentioned earlier, a lot of people half squat and bend over a little bit and call it a GM, while we push our ass back as far as we can, keeping the back flat and bending at the hips until we are staring at the floor.

This is tremendous for developing the conventional deadlift (and even the sumo, considering it is often lower back strength that begins to hold back sumo deadlifts).

We do the suspended GM's (with the SSB) to more directly develop the deadlift as well.

Load, in this case, is a moot point to me. We don't regard how much weight is on the bar as a fair or accuate representation of effectiveness.

[PowerManDL]

Ok, but I'm trying to break out of the WS4Lyfe mentality for a sec and look at it objectively.

Both exercises work the same musculature, give or take, and there's enough variety in the two to make both worthwhile as assistance work. There are also concerns that extend beyond improvement of the SQ and DL. That's the point I'm making.

[TheDeliverator]

Ok, but I'm trying to break out of the WS4Lyfe mentality for a sec and look at it objectively.

I'm hardly a WS4Life guy, and want to note that you brought up the relevance of developing the squat or deadlift specifically -not me!


Both exercises work the same musculature, give or take, and there's enough variety in the two to make both worthwhile as assistance work. There are also concerns that extend beyond improvement of the SQ and DL. That's the point I'm making.

I think they are both viable movements for assistance work, sure. I just think the goodmorning is better, no matter if your goals are to squat and deadlift big or fill out a brazilian cut bikini.

(Brazilian cut bottoms are the best, and that is not open for argument).

[PowerManDL]

I'm hardly a WS4Life guy, and want to note that you brought up the relevance of developing the squat or deadlift specifically -not me!

So using your own powerlifting experience wasn't relating it to building the SQ or DL? :)


(Brazilian cut bottoms are the best, and that is not open for argument).

Agreed.

[TheDeliverator]

So using your own powerlifting experience wasn't relating it to building the SQ or DL?

I plead the 5th.

[chicca]

Can you buy a BB for at home? I did, and it was a great investment. (Now I just need a power cage...!)
if i did i'm pretty sure it would fall right through the floor of my flat! have a feeling the neighbours on the floor below wouldn't be pleased! LOL


You can do something near a conventional dl with db's...same movement, but holding the weight at your sides.
i'll try these tonight. they might be a good temporary solution. thanks.


In the overall scheme of things the volume will be the same, but you might find after a heavy movement you don't have a lot of juice left over for even a light movement of the same kind.
:doh: got it now! :thumb:

many thanks for all the advice!
chicca

ps-

For a 600-ish deadlifter, I can't work with much more than 400-450 on the RDL, and then for a set or two. Much less if doing 5x5.
:eek: :bowdown:

[smuggie]

Keep us posted on how the routine works out for you.

[quickie]

CDLs, like any exercise can end up sometimes being too much of a good thing for those who want to do bodybuilding shows or for those who want to slim down their waistlines... Gotta keep it mixed up.

why?

[Robben]

why?

Cause...

Quick, a full hard on CDL thicken's the waist. If you want to trim down the waist then do partial deads and pull with the upper back and thrust those shoulders back when you get to the upside of the movement. It just is...

[Sportsgirl]

Cause...

Quick, a full hard on CDL thicken's the waist. If you want to trim down the waist then do partial deads and pull with the upper back and thrust those shoulders back when you get to the upside of the movement. It just is...

I thought that they thicken the waist depth-wise (by making the spinal erectors thicker) but the appearance of the waist still looks the same from the front because it doesn't thicken the waist width-wise.

[PowerManDL]

Cause...

Quick, a full hard on CDL thicken's the waist. If you want to trim down the waist then do partial deads and pull with the upper back and thrust those shoulders back when you get to the upside of the movement. It just is...

No they don't.

[TheDeliverator]

Conventional deadlifts don't give you a bulky waist, but they do slim out your inner thighs by up-regulating the spot-2reduction beta receptors.

It's science.

[PowerManDL]

Brick killed a guy

[TheDeliverator]

Yeah, there were horses, and a man on fire, and I killed a guy with a trident.

[chicca]

ok, re my heavy hip/light quad days...
i've tried a couple of variations on CDLs with my DBs and it's really not working out...could i do 5x5 reverse lunges instead? i thought these are quad dom but they're listed as hip dom on several sites, including exrx...is this right?
or even 5x5 high step ups?
running out of ideas, it's the only day i haven't set up properly. i've already done 1 lower day and 1 upper day from this routine and i'm loving it so far!

also, smuggie you suggested i do 3x5 while on a deficit if i need to...would i do 3 sets at the same weight as 5x5 or should i increase it a bit? there's no denying i'm a noob! lol


Keep us posted on how the routine works out for you.
you know i will! :thumb:

[smuggie]

ok, re my heavy hip/light quad days...
i've tried a couple of variations on CDLs with my DBs and it's really not working out...could i do 5x5 reverse lunges instead? i thought these are quad dom but they're listed as hip dom on several sites, including exrx...is this right?
or even 5x5 high step ups?
running out of ideas, it's the only day i haven't set up properly. i've already done 1 lower day and 1 upper day from this routine and i'm loving it so far!

also, smuggie you suggested i do 3x5 while on a deficit if i need to...would i do 3 sets at the same weight as 5x5 or should i increase it a bit? there's no denying i'm a noob! lol


you know i will! :thumb:
What exactly is the problem with doing CDLs with DBs for you?

I'd say do the 3x5 at the same weight you'd use for 5x5. IMO, trading volume for higher intensity while dieting defeats the purpose of doing less volume.

[chicca]

What exactly is the problem with doing CDLs with DBs for you?
didn't feel it in the hams! felt like was squatting down to pick up the DBs and pulling them up with my upper back/shoulders...and i lost my balance a couple of times. i'm checking out videos now to see how i can improve my form...this was my first attempt at CDLs so it could easily be that i did them wrong! i am going to try again...i'm no quitter! :wink:
but i'm looking at these alternatives as a back-up plan, that way i can do heavy ham work for the first 6-8 weeks of this cycle and hopefully by then my gym will have re-opened (and i'll be stronger) and then i can sub in CDLs with a light bb (think that would help the balance?!).
still curious, would reverse lunges come under quad or hip dom?


I'd say do the 3x5 at the same weight you'd use for 5x5. IMO, trading volume for higher intensity while dieting defeats the purpose of doing less volume.

thought so! thanks a ton for all the help!

[smuggie]

didn't feel it in the hams! felt like was squatting down to pick up the DBs and pulling them up with my upper back/shoulders...and i lost my balance a couple of times. i'm checking out videos now to see how i can improve my form...this was my first attempt at CDLs so it could easily be that i did them wrong! i am going to try again...i'm no quitter! :wink:
I see what's happening here now.

When doing BB CDLs, if you use plates that are smaller than 45s or pull while standing on a box you're pulling from a deficit. That forces you to squat down more and put more upper back/shoulders into it.

People whose pull is weak from the floor might incorporate pulling from a deficit into their training, but that's not something you need to worry about at this time.

Since you're using DBs you're essentially pulling from a deficit. Try setting the DBs on a platform on either side so they're higher off the floor, so you're starting from a normal DL position.

still curious, would reverse lunges come under quad or hip dom?
I'm too much of a klutz to do them, so I couldn't tell you. :lol:

But word on the street has it they're hip dom.

[PowerManDL]

For a different perspective, I posted this on O2 recently, but it seems relevant to the thread:

In regards to what I see others do:

I feel that most I've seen here overtrain. Even the stuff in the stickies leads to being too much, IMO. The whole overemphasis on quad-dominant and hip-dominant, vertical push and pull, leads to paralysis by analysis. These are issues to be concerned about over spans of time yes, but not to necessarily cram into each and every workout.

My preferred structure:

Full Body:

Lower body lift - either a squat or a deadlift
Upper body push - overhead, incline, flat bench
Upper body pull - barbell row or chinup
Assistance - stuff for posterior chain (back raise, glute-ham raise, pullthrus, etc), arms (2-4x10-20), and calves as needed.

Three big exercises, no more than 3-4 smaller ones.

Upper/Lower:

Upper Body:
Main exercise
Bodypart specific work (includes chest, back, and arms)

Example:

Push Press - 6x3 (main exercise, done heavy/explosive)
DB flye/press - 5x10 ("chest")
Chinups - 5x5 ("back")
Tricep pushdowns - 2x10 ("triceps")

Four exercises. I might end up with 1-2 more assistance movements, and on weeks when I feel really frisky I'll do a second heavy barbell movement for sets of 5 as well. Even on weeks I consider "high volume" you'll see a total of seven movements, with only two of them being heavy barbell work.

Lower Body:
Main exercise
Bodypart specific work (includes glutes, quads, and hams)

Example:

Full Squats - 3x5
Leg Press - 3x10, usually a mix between single-leg and two-leg sets
Back Raise - 5x10
Calf stuff

Again, four exercises in total, and only one heavy barbell movement.

Yes, I gain on this. Every person I've worked with that's gone on similar routines has made progress, simply because you can only do so much work in a given session before you overtax the body and begin to compromise your ability to add weight to the bar. You don't need insane amounts of volume to send the hypertrophy signals. There's a sweet spot between too little and too much.

Most of what I see here errs on the side of "too much", especially when you take into account that most are chronic under-eaters. You can work with more volume if you're eating for it, but I can think of two women on this board that I know of that would be willing to do that. When you're under-eating, volume restriction becomes even more important because you don't have the nutrient resources to recover from the stress.

Adding weight to the bar is always, always, always the fundamental goal of strength training and is the basic factor that drives progression. If you're not adding weight to the bar in some regular interval, you're not improving and you won't significantly change how you look (unless you're drugged up, then it doesn't matter). This should take precedence over adding tons of sets and reps. This is also why strength routines will time and again change and develop the physiques of individuals, both male and female, moreso than any "bodybuilding" or "shaping" routine ever devised. When you add weight to the bar, you develop the muscle. That should be the emphasis.

[quickie]

I've been doing even less than that and seen better progress.

[Robben]

I see what's happening here now.

When doing BB CDLs, if you use plates that are smaller than 45s or pull while standing on a box you're pulling from a deficit. That forces you to squat down more and put more upper back/shoulders into it.

People whose pull is weak from the floor might incorporate pulling from a deficit into their training, but that's not something you need to worry about at this time.

Since you're using DBs you're essentially pulling from a deficit. Try setting the DBs on a platform on either side so they're higher off the floor, so you're starting from a normal DL position.

I'm too much of a klutz to do them, so I couldn't tell you. :lol:


But word on the street has it they're hip dom.

Another problem she could be having with the use of Dumbbells is her stance... If her stance isn't wide enough then she's more than likely pulling mostly from her lower back. The problem with so many is they do the rep wrong but yet they keep on pulling in the same fashion with to heavy of a weight and don't give much thought to the pull or the push of the muscle they are working...:shrug:

[chicca]

When doing BB CDLs, if you use plates that are smaller than 45s or pull while standing on a box you're pulling from a deficit. That forces you to squat down more and put more upper back/shoulders into it.

People whose pull is weak from the floor might incorporate pulling from a deficit into their training, but that's not something you need to worry about at this time.

Since you're using DBs you're essentially pulling from a deficit. Try setting the DBs on a platform on either side so they're higher off the floor, so you're starting from a normal DL position.

got it! will try this next lower day. thanks!



The whole overemphasis on quad-dominant and hip-dominant, vertical push and pull, leads to paralysis by analysis.
Guilty as charged! :lol3:

love this set up! hit everything once and leave! nice!

EDIT: i just noticed, with my heavy work at 3x5 and my light work at 3x8/1-2x12, i'm working with even less volume than you suggest(PMDL)...how'd that happen? lol

thanks for all the input!

[chicca]

For a different perspective, I posted this on O2 recently, but it seems relevant to the thread:

In regards to what I see others do:

I feel that most I've seen here overtrain. Even the stuff in the stickies leads to being too much, IMO. The whole overemphasis on quad-dominant and hip-dominant, vertical push and pull, leads to paralysis by analysis. These are issues to be concerned about over spans of time yes, but not to necessarily cram into each and every workout.

My preferred structure:

Full Body:

Lower body lift - either a squat or a deadlift
Upper body push - overhead, incline, flat bench
Upper body pull - barbell row or chinup
Assistance - stuff for posterior chain (back raise, glute-ham raise, pullthrus, etc), arms (2-4x10-20), and calves as needed.

Three big exercises, no more than 3-4 smaller ones.

Upper/Lower:

Upper Body:
Main exercise
Bodypart specific work (includes chest, back, and arms)

Example:

Push Press - 6x3 (main exercise, done heavy/explosive)
DB flye/press - 5x10 ("chest")
Chinups - 5x5 ("back")
Tricep pushdowns - 2x10 ("triceps")

Four exercises. I might end up with 1-2 more assistance movements, and on weeks when I feel really frisky I'll do a second heavy barbell movement for sets of 5 as well. Even on weeks I consider "high volume" you'll see a total of seven movements, with only two of them being heavy barbell work.

Lower Body:
Main exercise
Bodypart specific work (includes glutes, quads, and hams)

Example:

Full Squats - 3x5
Leg Press - 3x10, usually a mix between single-leg and two-leg sets
Back Raise - 5x10
Calf stuff

Again, four exercises in total, and only one heavy barbell movement.

Yes, I gain on this. Every person I've worked with that's gone on similar routines has made progress, simply because you can only do so much work in a given session before you overtax the body and begin to compromise your ability to add weight to the bar. You don't need insane amounts of volume to send the hypertrophy signals. There's a sweet spot between too little and too much.

Most of what I see here errs on the side of "too much", especially when you take into account that most are chronic under-eaters. You can work with more volume if you're eating for it, but I can think of two women on this board that I know of that would be willing to do that. When you're under-eating, volume restriction becomes even more important because you don't have the nutrient resources to recover from the stress.

Adding weight to the bar is always, always, always the fundamental goal of strength training and is the basic factor that drives progression. If you're not adding weight to the bar in some regular interval, you're not improving and you won't significantly change how you look (unless you're drugged up, then it doesn't matter). This should take precedence over adding tons of sets and reps. This is also why strength routines will time and again change and develop the physiques of individuals, both male and female, moreso than any "bodybuilding" or "shaping" routine ever devised. When you add weight to the bar, you develop the muscle. That should be the emphasis.

ok, so i get what you're saying about over analysing the splits as well as cramming too much in to each workout. basically, quality over quantity! but i still have a couple of questions...
i see the main diff between the way you set up the routine in your example and the upper/lower from the stickies is that you have one main exercise as your focus (ie, heavy work) as opposed to having a plane of movement as the primary concern on each day.
but both splits have a max of 4 exercises (maybe 5 for isolation work), 2 of which are heavy (either 6x3 as in your eg or 5x5).
1- is there really that much of a difference between the two routines apart from the fact that your split is much simpler to plan/follow and prevents people like me from getting stuck in the details? LOL!
2- would you suggest decreasing the volume if doing this split on a slight deficit (200-300 cals below maintenance)? ...as i mentioned earlier, my plan as it stands would have less volume than yours (going by the examples you've given)
3- am i in a good situation as a newbie to be able to handle this much volume on a deficit? or would this much volume still have the effect of breaking down without being able to build up?
NB: i class myself as a newbie since i only started weigths a few months ago and all my work has been relatively light because i was learning correct form and also didn't have access to heavier weights when my gym closed. so i'm new to heavy lifting for sure! i (hopefully!) have that golden 3 month opportunity to grow and shrink simultaneoulsy!
fyi, i'm asking this to get a better understanding of your 'other perspective' not to question your wisdom (i ain't bashing anybody who can DL 600lbs! LOL)
i really appreciate all the help i've had so far! thanks!

[PowerManDL]

1- is there really that much of a difference between the two routines apart from the fact that your split is much simpler to plan/follow and prevents people like me from getting stuck in the details? LOL!

Simplicity is a virtue in itself.


2- would you suggest decreasing the volume if doing this split on a slight deficit (200-300 cals below maintenance)? ...as i mentioned earlier, my plan as it stands would have less volume than yours (going by the examples you've given)

A slight deficit isn't the same thing as a big deficit. The only way for you to tell is to do it. If you start feeling worn out, fatigued, and like you're not getting anywhere in terms of adding weight to the bar, you're likely doing too much.


3- am i in a good situation as a newbie to be able to handle this much volume on a deficit? or would this much volume still have the effect of breaking down without being able to build up?

See above.


NB: i class myself as a newbie since i only started weigths a few months ago and all my work has been relatively light because i was learning correct form and also didn't have access to heavier weights when my gym closed. so i'm new to heavy lifting for sure! i (hopefully!) have that golden 3 month opportunity to grow and shrink simultaneoulsy!
fyi, i'm asking this to get a better understanding of your 'other perspective' not to question your wisdom (i ain't bashing anybody who can DL 600lbs! LOL)
i really appreciate all the help i've had so far! thanks!

To be honest, you could get by with something even simpler, closer to what Rippetoe outlines for a beginner in Starting Strength/PRactical Programming.

That will give you the quickest returns in strength (and thus physique development).

Basically just work to improve weight each session until it stops, using 2-4 sets of 5 for three workouts a week and sticking to a handful of barbell exercises. You shouldn't even need the assistance stuff until you get a little further along.

[chicca]

thanks for breaking it down!
:thumb: