Question

[Steve]

Is periodization as important while in a caloric deficit? Resistance training while dieting facilitates the maintenance of muscle, right? So is there any reason to be as concerned with the avoidance of adaptation through periodization while dieting?

[Inatic]

:bump:

[smuggie]

Good question. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v614/montagnu/ellis/hmm.gif

[Steve]

It remains a mystery.

[Erik]

I'll reply later.

[strongchick]

Excellent question....

I'm looking forward to the answer.

[Steve]

I'll reply later.

I was hoping someone with a decent base of knowledge would answer. But thanks anyhow.

[Erik]

Good point. I'll pass on this one.

[Steve]

Good point. I'll pass on this one.

No, seriously. Don't. I want an answer.

[Tony]

I'd say yes. This is assuming that volume is adjusted according to the severity of your deficit.

Also, you need to make sure to periodize according to your level of advancement. As per "Practical Programming":

Beginner - workout to workout periodization (in other words none.. :p)
Intermediate - Weekly periodization
Advanced - ~ monthly periodization

A good example of this is how Matt (PMDL) programmed Sportsgirl's training during her diet. He did a standard intermediate 5x5 approach while making appropriate changes to volume according to the severity of her caloric deficit.

[strongchick]

I think Steve was wondering as to WHY that would be important... We do it, but if muscle maintenance (rather than gain) is the purpose, how important is it? What would the purpose be?

[Steve]

I think Steve was wondering as to WHY that would be important... We do it, but if muscle maintenance (rather than gain) is the purpose, how important is it? What would the purpose be?

Yup, you got it Sarah.

[Tony]

In the context of weekly periodization AND a diet that includes refeeds, you could schedule heavier/harder workouts on the refeed days and lighter/easier workouts on the deficit days.

[Aaron_F]

The simplest notion of periodizating is a plan.


Planning is good whether you are eating less or more.

[Steve]

The simplest notion of periodizating is a plan.


Planning is good whether you are eating less or more.

I understand what periodization is. But why isn't providing any stimulus through resistance training enough to ward off catabolism? Or put differently, how does periodization optimize muscle maintenance while in a caloric deficit?

[Tony]

I understand what periodization is. But why isn't providing any stimulus through resistance training enough to ward off catabolism? Or put differently, how does periodization optimize muscle maintenance while in a caloric deficit?

Tell us what you hand in mind in terms of training during a caloric deficit...

[Steve]

Tell us what you hand in mind in terms of training during a caloric deficit...

I've never done it personally, at least intentionally. It was just a passing thought I had yesterday.

It makes sense to me that training heavy and briefly a couple of times per week with planned rests for CNS fatigue would be sufficient. Maybe a very basic 5x5 or 3x3.

That in itself could be considered periodization since you are planning rests.... but is there any reason to do anything besides heavy compound work with reduced volume?

[Tony]

I've never done it personally, at least intentionally. It was just a passing thought I had yesterday.

It makes sense to me that training heavy and briefly a couple of times per week with planned rests for CNS fatigue would be sufficient. Maybe a very basic 5x5 or 3x3.

That in itself could be considered periodization since you are planning rests.... but is there any reason to do anything besides heavy compound work with reduced volume?

No. The only stuff you might want to include in addition to heavy compound work is prehab movements.

You definitely have the right idea. Stick to the heavy stuff. However, if you're training 2-3 times a week, you'll want "different types of heavy" on each training day (stealing from Practical Programming again... :p). For example, on one day you could do 5x5. On the other day you could either work up to one set of 3-5 reps or do ~5 singles with ~85-90% of your max. The point is that both of those options would make for a less stressful training session than the 5x5 that was done earlier in the week.

[Steve]

No. The only stuff you might want to include in addition to heavy compound work is prehab movements.

You definitely have the right idea. Stick to the heavy stuff. However, if you're training 2-3 times a week, you'll want "different types of heavy" on each training day (stealing from Practical Programming again... :p). For example, on one day you could do 5x5. On the other day you could either work up to one set of 3-5 reps or do ~5 singles with ~85-90% of your max. The point is that both of those options would make for a less stressful training session than the 5x5 that was done earlier in the week.

I've got to read Practical Programming. I am sitting on it here with a boat load of other books to read. Maybe I should bump it up.

I guess the answer I am looking for to the original question I asked is this:

"Periodization is important while in a caloric deficit to manage fatigue first and foremost."

Put simply.

[Tony]

I've got to read Practical Programming. I am sitting on it here with a boat load of other books to read. Maybe I should bump it up.

I guess the answer I am looking for to the original question I asked is this:

"Periodization is important while in a caloric deficit to manage fatigue first and foremost."

Put simply.

:thumb:

[Steve]

Thanks Tony, green for you for a good conversation. :)

[Jeff Rage]

It's interesting how different people define periodization.

[Steve]

It's interesting how different people define periodization.

I think Aaron was right, in saying that it is simply a plan. What did you mean Jeff?

[Jeff Rage]

I think Aaron was right, in saying that it is simply a plan. What did you mean Jeff?
When I think of periodization, I think of things like Linear, Conjugate. Concurrent, Undulated, etc. Those are some different ways to set up a plan.

It's sounds like that's different than what's in Practical Programming.

Of course, all that doesn't matter if you got the answer to your question. :)

[Steve]

When I think of periodization, I think of things like Linear, Conjugate. Concurrent, Undulated, etc. Those are some different ways to set up a plan.

It's sounds like that's different than what's in Practical Programming.

Of course, all that doesn't matter if you got the answer to your question. :)

It was a question I asked not so much for a straight answer. More for conversation and debate.

And again, I think periodization is simply a plan. The ones you listed are just different ways of going about it.

[Aaron_F]

I understand what periodization is. But why isn't providing any stimulus through resistance training enough to ward off catabolism? Or put differently, how does periodization optimize muscle maintenance while in a caloric deficit?

You set a plan relating to what you want to achieve. Something like the grading systems from practical periodization that Tony posted are important.

If you look at Lyles UD2 program, its pretty much a weekly diet/training periodization system, in that during periods of low calories you work on metabolic systems,. during periods following repletion you work on maximal loading to maintain muscle mass.

You can plan on just bashing away at maximal 3-5rm loads, but that will sooner or later run into a wall. This is more suitable for a beginer, much like the PP concept of daily manipulation.

Somebody who is running elite level may have to come up with a bit more manipulation to achieve something, over the course of a longer cutting cycle. So periods lower cals, periods higher cals, periods of volume/loading, periods of unloading and peaking to maximal weights.

[TheDeliverator]

Man, you guys think a lot.

[Erik]

Caloric restriction automatically increases the perceived volume and intensiveness of any exercise workload so even a low volume routine can be perceived by the body as quite intensive and vice versa. So strength gains and results won't always be 100% correlated with the training. That's one reason why bodybuilders traditionally don't periodize their training much.- their periodization comes about mainly through alterations in diet.

My thinking is that beyond that, given the goals of resistance training while in a deficit are primarily to maintain pre-existing strength and size levels, that planned periodization is less important. Of course, there's still the need to manage volume, intensity and fatigue given the impaired recovery we have when in a deficit, but just a general lowered volume of training, with emphasis still on staying strong on compound lifts will often be enough to maintain.

[char-dawg]

Caloric restriction automatically increases the perceived volume and intensiveness of any exercise workload so even a low volume routine can be perceived by the body as quite intensive and vice versa. So strength gains and results won't always be 100% correlated with the training. That's one reason why bodybuilders traditionally don't periodize their training much.- their periodization comes about mainly through alterations in diet.
This is a very good point - and not one I've seen put so succinctly anywhere else.

Green for you! :thumb:



To answer Steve's original question, once you get beyond the newbie phase, you have to have some sort of periodization all the time, forever, or else you're going to start regressing. Even to maintain, you have to continue with what got you there in the first place.

It's basically just a question of how much/what sort of stimulus it takes to maintain a body that has been "perturbed upward" from its "normal" couch-potato state (and beyond the newbie state). Put another way, you make gains beyond what your body needs to conduct its life without the gym, and in order to maintain those gains, you have to keep at it. Right? If you're post-newbie, this will include some sort of periodization, almost by definition.

It's necessary when dieting just like it is any other time. It's just that, since restrictive diets are relatively short-term, you can do something like 5x5 the whole time and not really think about it as periodization, since the time-frame is only a month or two. But viewed in a larger context (and especially with reference to what Erik posted above), it is.