Opinions, critiques, Suggestions- What ever- Just fire away!!!

[missfitlissa]

So, Maybe I should introduce myself. I was pretty active on Ep before, so some of you may know me, some of you may not. so, Hi! I'm Melissa, and currently TRYING to get back on track. I did a show in November, placing 4th. I am now kind of on my own, and have only old training programs to go on.Awhile back, I posted over on EP the most current program I have, and as I suspected, the general consensus is that it sucks. LOL I have gone through my old programs and such, and am just trying to piece together a work out that is going to help me. My goal isn't to lose weight, but to increase muscle mass. It has been suggested I try the 5x5 routine, but I didn't like it :oops:. I will get flamed for sure, but I just didn't feel I was doing "enough". BUT, from the feedback I received in the past, this may be because I am over training. So, here is my plan- its an older one that I used probably 3 months out from my last show. I would appreciate any feedback you guys can give! Thanks in advance :yum:

Day 1: Shoulders & Triceps Sets

* Machine front press barbell 1 x 15 / 3 x 6-8
* Dumbbell press 4 x 4-6
* Side Lateral 3 x 4-6
* Up right row 1 x 12 / 3 x 6-8
* Close grip bench 1 x 15 / 3 x 6-9
* Pulley pushdown 2 x 8-10
* Dumbbell extension 3 x 4-7
* 1 arm standing extension 3 x 8-10
* Standing calf raise 1 x 15 / 3 x 4-6
* Seated calf raise 3 x 4-6




Day 2: Chest & Biceps Sets

* Incline bench press 2 x 25 / 3 x 6-9
* Incline dumbbell press 4 x 5-8
* Incline flies 1 x 12 / 3 x 6-8
* Flat dumbbell press & flies 4 x 8-10
* Standing barbell curl 2 x 25 / 3 x 4-8
* Scott Curl 3 x 6-8
* 1 arm Scott curl 3 x 4-6
* 1 arm concentration curl 3 x 12




Day 3: Back & Rear Delts Set

* Pull down front neck 1 x 25 / 3 x 8-10
* T-Bar row 3 x 10-12
* Bent over row 3 x 8-10
* Seated rowing 3 x 6-8
* Dumbbell row 3 x 6-8
* Bent lateral 4 x 10
* Dumbbell shrugs 3 x 6-8
* Hyperextension 2 x 25
* Abs (your choice) 4 x 0 - ?


Day 4: Legs Sets

* German style dead lift 4 x 12
* Leg curl 2 x 12 / 4 x 6-9
* Leg extension 2 x 20 / 2 x 6-8
* Leg press 2 x 12 / 3 x 5-8
* Lunges 2 x 15-20 with weights
* Squat 1 x 12 / 3 x 5-8
* Good morning 2 x 15-20
* Leg raise 4 x 12-15

[donnajo]

That is a lot of volume. Remember quality over quantity. How do you keep up intensity with all that?

[Jypsie]

Wow.


That looks like a ton of volume.

Why do you do that particular split?

[Patricia]

:ditto: everything above...that's a lot.
ETA- I've had excellent results with Erik in about 3-4 weeks doing about a third of that. Just food for thought......

[missfitlissa]

LOL- I do it because thats what I was told to do :oops: Precisely why I am posting it here because I really need to LEARN more about what works, what doesn't and why.

I like what I hear and see with people and their success with Erik. It's something I am seriously thinking about. It's something my SO and I need to talk about! :)I have lost all focus and motivation, and can't really be accountable to myself. I am trying hard to get back into it, but I know I can't really do it on my own.


Stupid question. When you talk about volume - do you mean the amount of exercises per assigned training day, or the amount of sets/reps, or the combination of the 2?

[Blondell]

Combination of the two.

[Inatic]

You might find some helpful information in this thread.

Just because you felt like you werent "doing" enough, isnt a judge of an effective program.

http://www.leanbodiesfitness.net/showthread.php?t=2374&page=2&highlight=upper%2Flower+split

You might want to take a peak at some of the private training journals too. SOme good stuff in there, other than those of us training with Erik, those arent posted.

[missfitlissa]

You might find some helpful information in this thread.

Just because you felt like you werent "doing" enough, isnt a judge of an effective program.

http://www.leanbodiesfitness.net/showthread.php?t=2374&page=2&highlight=upper%2Flower+split

You might want to take a peak at some of the private training journals too. SOme good stuff in there, other than those of us training with Erik, those arent posted.


Thanks :thumb: Thats very helpful. I like the look of the 3rd split. I spend far too much time in the gym right now, and it looks to be time effective..

[Erik]

I will get flamed for sure, but I just didn't feel I was doing "enough". BUT, from the feedback I received in the past, this may be because I am over training.

More is not better. Smarter is better.



So, here is my plan- its an older one that I used probably 3 months out from my last show. I would appreciate any feedback you guys can give! Thanks in advance :yum:

This was what you did for pre-contest training? :blink:



Day 1: Shoulders & Triceps Sets

* Machine front press barbell 1 x 15 / 3 x 6-8
* Dumbbell press 4 x 4-6

Isn't this a bit redundent? Press ... right after a press?



* Side Lateral 3 x 4-6
* Up right row 1 x 12 / 3 x 6-8
* Close grip bench 1 x 15 / 3 x 6-9
* Pulley pushdown 2 x 8-10
* Dumbbell extension 3 x 4-7
* 1 arm standing extension 3 x 8-10

You do basically as much tricep work as you do shoulder work ... all while ignoring the fact that you have 7 heavy pressing sets for shoulders at the beginning of this workout - that's 7 more triceps sets. So in actuality you do more for triceps than you do for shoulders.

this point will also be relevent to your chest day (more shoulders and triceps hit on chest day ... and on Day 2 no less).



Day 2: Chest & Biceps Sets

* Incline bench press 2 x 25 / 3 x 6-9
* Incline dumbbell press 4 x 5-8

Again, rather redundent no? 7 sets of pressing, two separate pressing exercises.



* Incline flies 1 x 12 / 3 x 6-8
* Flat dumbbell press & flies 4 x 8-10

More pressing.

And more flies after having already done flies.

All this chest work also hammers shoulders and triceps ... so right now your shoulders and triceps have bee murdered over two days.

The goal is to stimulate an adaptive hypertrophic response by disrupting homeostasis ... not seeing how much workload your body can handle before breaking down.



* Standing barbell curl 2 x 25 / 3 x 4-8
* Scott Curl 3 x 6-8
* 1 arm Scott curl 3 x 4-6
* 1 arm concentration curl 3 x 12

Four biceps exercises?

Almost as much biceps work (very small muscle) as you do for a bigger muscle like chest? Or legs?

And again, consider the crossover from biceps to the FIVE back exercises (all pulling and therefore all biceps) you're doing.



Day 3: Back & Rear Delts Set

* Pull down front neck 1 x 25 / 3 x 8-10
* T-Bar row 3 x 10-12
* Bent over row 3 x 8-10
* Seated rowing 3 x 6-8
* Dumbbell row 3 x 6-8
* Bent lateral 4 x 10
* Dumbbell shrugs 3 x 6-8
* Hyperextension 2 x 25
* Abs (your choice) 4 x 0 - ?

You might be catching on to a theme here.

My comments - too much.




Day 4: Legs Sets

* German style dead lift 4 x 12
* Leg curl 2 x 12 / 4 x 6-9
* Leg extension 2 x 20 / 2 x 6-8
* Leg press 2 x 12 / 3 x 5-8
* Lunges 2 x 15-20 with weights
* Squat 1 x 12 / 3 x 5-8
* Good morning 2 x 15-20
* Leg raise 4 x 12-15

I don't understand the rhyme or reason for how any of this is put together. No offense but it's horrible and it looks like it came straight out of Flex Magazine.

You're doing yourself no favours here unfortunately.

[Noel Clark]

Thanks :thumb: Thats very helpful. I like the look of the 3rd split. I spend far too much time in the gym right now, and it looks to be time effective..
wow, i would definitely take Erik's advice from the last post. I understand where you are coming from though..just not knowing for sure and taking someone else's advice...that is what I was doing before coming here and realizing that what I was doing was wrong and I was basically spinning my wheels. I also understand that you "feel" like you aren't doing enough...but like ileen said...that doesn't make your workout good/not good. I love the plans that I have gotten from Erik. I push myself in the gym but am not in there forever. I have seen HUGE changes in my body in a very short short time.

Good Luck!!!

[missfitlissa]

More is not better. Smarter is better.



This was what you did for pre-contest training? :blink:



You might be catching on to a theme here.

My comments - too much.



I don't understand the rhyme or reason for how any of this is put together. No offense but it's horrible and it looks like it came straight out of Flex Magazine.

You're doing yourself no favours here unfortunately.


No offence taken at all!!! I agree - Smarter is better, and I get the theme. Deep down its what I have known all along, but never bothered to question it. Over time I have been on both boards, and realize how different everyone else trains compared to me. Its something I want to fix!!

This particular program I did from aprox. the end of august, right up until close to the end of october. My competition was November 4.... So, um, yeah... You can see why I am looking to change my program and coaching..


Noel- you hit the nail on the head there. Just not knowing enough and taking someone's advice has basically left me spinning my wheels. I want to train smarter for better results. I love to compete, but its not something I want to do unless I am 100% confident in myself and training! I'm going to look at the split mention before hand.. Thanks for all the info and feedback- It much appreciated!

[smuggie]

No offence taken at all!!! I agree - Smarter is better, and I get the theme. Deep down its what I have known all along, but never bothered to question it. Over time I have been on both boards, and realize how different everyone else trains compared to me. Its something I want to fix!!
If you want to fix it then give 5x5 another shot. That, combined with eating at a surplus, will add some nice muscle to your frame.

As a side note, if you felt you weren't doing enough on 5x5 you weren't lifting heavy enough.

[missfitlissa]

If you want to fix it then give 5x5 another shot. That, combined with eating at a surplus, will add some nice muscle to your frame.

As a side note, if you felt you weren't doing enough on 5x5 you weren't lifting heavy enough.

When I said I didn't think I was doing enough- I meant time wise. I am used to spending lots of time at the gym doing a ridiculous amount of exercises!

Do you think the 5x5 would be more effective than a split like this:
day 1 - heavy upper horizontal / light vertical
day 2 - heavy quad / light ham
day 3 - heavy upper vertical / light horizontal
day 4 - heavy ham / light quad

?

[smuggie]

When I said I didn't think I was doing enough- I meant time wise. I am used to spending lots of time at the gym doing a ridiculous amount of exercises!

Do you think the 5x5 would be more effective than a split like this:
day 1 - heavy upper horizontal / light vertical
day 2 - heavy quad / light ham
day 3 - heavy upper vertical / light horizontal
day 4 - heavy ham / light quad

?

I think they're both effective.

If you want to do a four-day split you also have the option of turning 5x5 into a four-day program.

[Erik]

When I said I didn't think I was doing enough- I meant time wise. I am used to spending lots of time at the gym doing a ridiculous amount of exercises!

Do you think the 5x5 would be more effective than a split like this:
day 1 - heavy upper horizontal / light vertical
day 2 - heavy quad / light ham
day 3 - heavy upper vertical / light horizontal
day 4 - heavy ham / light quad

?

Good split. I use it often.

But the split is not the important part of the programming.

[Tearose]

I just wanted to say Hi Lissa!!! I'ved missed you :kiss:

[missfitlissa]

Thanks smuggie!


Good split. I use it often.

But the split is not the important part of the programming.


Gotcha! I think my brain needs to be deprogrammed! :funny:


Hi Tea!

[cmberman1987]

Good split. I use it often.

But the split is not the important part of the programming.

Gah, so true.

[Audrey]

When I said I didn't think I was doing enough- I meant time wise. I am used to spending lots of time at the gym doing a ridiculous amount of exercises!

But wouldn't you prefer spending half the time in the gym than you used to while getting much better results? It is all about being efficient :wink:

I used to do an insane volume of training as well and spent many years spinning my wheels and not getting anywhere. It is only when I started decreasing the volume that I was doing that I started seeing some results (although at that point I was still using a bodypart split as recommended by my trainer). I saw even better results the day I stopped using bodypart splits and focused on planes of movements instead (vertical/horizontal pushing, vertical/horizontal pulling, quad/ham dominant). Not to mention that training is a LOT more fun these days.

Just because you are spending hours in the gym training does not mean that you will get the results you are after. Drop the volume (both the number of exercises that you do and the number of reps), incorporate more heavy compound exercises such as deadlifts, squats, military presses (and by heavy I mean 4-6 reps per set) and spend less time on isolation exercises. Combine this with eating at a surplus and yo should see some nice results :wink:

[Cass]

:hearts:

[char-dawg]

Actually, I think that Audrey hit the nail on the head here, in a backhanded sort of way. I always thought that one of the main reasons that Mike Mentzer's stuff didn't catch on more thoroughly back in the day is that there are a lot of people out there who are simply not all that interested in being efficient when it comes to the gym. They LIKE going to the gym, they LIKE being there, and staying for a couple of hours is not only not a problem, but something of a pleasure.

Whenever I've been going to a gym for a while, I end up making friends with some of the people there. Of course there are the idjits, but there are generally also some really cool people. So I like talking to them. And I've seen a lot of other folks do exactly the same thing.

The trick is, separate your workout from the other stuff. Go heavy, get the sets done, and then if you want to spend more time there, devote it to stretching, foam roller work, maybe some cardio, whatever. And have your social time.

[radgirl]

Hi Lissa, glad you are here. The one thing I can definitely say I have learned as far and training and eating is smarter, not harder. I too was the type that had to do crazy amounts of cardio and insane volume of training only to get no where and end up dead tired and in worse condition. As hard-headed as I am and as long as it has taken me, I have taken the advice of those on this board and have finally started paying attention and doing what works and not something that satisfies the idea of having to be in the gym for a specified amount of time. I always figured that if I wasn't in there for exactly an hour, then something was wrong. It's hard concept to come around to, especially if that is all you have known - work super hard, starve yourself (only to binge later) and you'll get the body you want. It's taken me quite sometime, but its something I've finally gotten used to and am happy to say its finally sinking in (although some days do get the better of me). Good luck!

[missfitlissa]

Well, I don'tdo m uch cardio because of my metabolism, but let me tell you, I am SORE today - and not in the hurt so good way. ore like the "holy f, I think I destroyed something" way. Gee I wonder why ?? SO and I went through all of thunders critiques (and everyone else's) and its painfully obvious there is much redundancy and way too much to the program. Char has seen my most current program (which is a million times worse- I just couldnt bear myself to post it) and I believe his words were " This is ripped right out of weiders principles". LOL SO also has a program as ridiculous as mine. We are both going through all the stickies and I am definitely trying the heavy upper horizontal/light vertical, etc type split.

Thanks everyone!! :)

[Audrey]

Sorry to hear that you are in pain :(

The other problem with bodypart splits (and especially those with such a high volume) is that some bodyparts will get overworked/overtrained - typically shoulders and arms. This leads to muscular imbalances across the joints, often compounded by the fact that you do not get as much pushing as pulling exercises or that you get to many quad dominant exercises and not enough posterior chain exercises (sometimes lying leg curls is the only hamstring exercise).

[char-dawg]

Well, I don'tdo m uch cardio because of my metabolism, but let me tell you, I am SORE today - and not in the hurt so good way. ore like the "holy f, I think I destroyed something" way. Gee I wonder why ?? SO and I went through all of thunders critiques (and everyone else's) and its painfully obvious there is much redundancy and way too much to the program. Char has seen my most current program (which is a million times worse- I just couldnt bear myself to post it) and I believe his words were " This is ripped right out of weiders principles". LOL SO also has a program as ridiculous as mine. We are both going through all the stickies and I am definitely trying the heavy upper horizontal/light vertical, etc type split.

Thanks everyone!! :)
YES.

:lol:

[smuggie]

Hi Lissa, glad you are here. The one thing I can definitely say I have learned as far and training and eating is smarter, not harder. I too was the type that had to do crazy amounts of cardio and insane volume of training only to get no where and end up dead tired and in worse condition. As hard-headed as I am and as long as it has taken me, I have taken the advice of those on this board and have finally started paying attention and doing what works and not something that satisfies the idea of having to be in the gym for a specified amount of time. I always figured that if I wasn't in there for exactly an hour, then something was wrong. It's hard concept to come around to, especially if that is all you have known - work super hard, starve yourself (only to binge later) and you'll get the body you want. It's taken me quite sometime, but its something I've finally gotten used to and am happy to say its finally sinking in (although some days do get the better of me). Good luck!
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